Migeru vs. Alex Weldon

Moves 131-140  

(131)

HolIgor's right, now that he mentions it. Anyway, you answered, as weaker players are wont to do (I probably would have also, to tell you the truth), so I can play this. May also be sente (threatens to destroy territory at the top), and pretty much guarantees life for my middle group.

Migeru

If I am not mistaken, at a vs. at b is 3 points miai counting, so I might still have something bigger somewhere. I'm going to count all my plays so I'll take a little longer than usual.

Moves 121-130  

(130)

Forced.

HolIgor: Not at all. It is not forced. It is just worth 4 points miai counting. At this moment black can play any number of sente moves and gote moves that are larger than those 4 points.

(129)

better at c because c will be hanami ko for White. Anyway, this is sente.

(128)

I think not playing here costs me 8 points.

(127)

I counted the score maybe a dozen moves back. Can't remember what I came up with, but I think I got W+15 or so, and I've picked up a bit since then. So I don't think you're down by 40, but the odds of you catching up are pretty slim.

(126)

I don't see any advantage to playing a.

HolIgor

see Snapback Problem 31 for the correct move.

By the way, am I on track to losing by 40?

(125)

Double sente.

Moves 111-120  

(120)

Here we go. I think e is bigger than d.

(119)

It is, if you don't want to defend at d, but then you're essentially making the same mistake you made in the top left.

Migeru

All I can say is "what a disastrous yose".

(118)

Well, you win. But this is sente.

(117)

Well, we both think we've read it.

(116)

I think I've read this...

(115)

Sorry. I don't think this monkey jump works, because the marked Black stone isn't strong enough.

(114)

I was afraid you would play . Anyway, I think this is my largest sente.

(113)

Don't see any more sente (except a and b and I'd rather leave those until I know which is better), and this seems like the largest gote left on the board for me.

unkx80: You know is very big. What I think is that in the last diagram isn't necessary, and can play at c instead.

HolIgor: I think that here understanding of a very importand go principle is misssing. I call this principle "reduce your opponent's territory to two points sente". Charles mentioned bullying as one of the methods of the use of thickness that is underused in English go literature. I could not comment on this here because I limit my comments to the variations that cannot affect the game.

(112)

...forced.

(111)

Capture in sente...

Moves 101-110  

(110)

For some reason I though that with the exchange you could not play at d in sente...

Alex Weldon: I believe that exchanges like are always loss-making for Black if Black doesn't follow up locally.

(109)

Yes, but you now can't defend at both and d so I'll get to play one. Assuming you defend and I play d, the exchange was loss-making for Black.

(108)

Really? It looks to me like you answered my move rather than taking the corner...

HolIgor: Echange , in the case when black is not going to connect loses 0.33 points (captured stone that might be taken back in ko) compared to the case when white simply play at d. It is a small loss, yet it is an unnecessary loss. Don't do that. Play hane only in the case when you are going to follow with tsugi.

, are worth 2.56 points (miai). In the case you are not going to play it is better to skip too, as teaches Bill.

(107)

Really? Doesn't look sente to me, unless I'm reading wrong. But if I don't connect and you cut, it looks like I have enough liberties...

(106)

Possibly the best answer.

(105)

Possibly also sente.

(104)

or b?

Alex Weldon: Sometimes hanging vs. solid connection is an issue, but I don't think it is here. Maybe b is slightly better, since it doesn't give me any threats, should a ko arise (which seems unlikely at this point).

HolIgor: Last point ko is always likely.

(103)

Yeah. To my 5 kyu eyes, White a would be bigger than the followup to any "sente" move you could take elsewhere.

(102)

Sente all right. I want to tenuki, but I think allowing you to play at a is about 20 points...

(101)

Should be sente. This is your only big territory, so I can't imagine Black tenuki here.

Moves 91-100  

(100)

You take away a monkey jump, I take away a monkey jump.

(99)

Yes. I hadn't thought of this, but it does seem large, as it threatens my group on the left. This gets me a few points and removes any immediate danger of a killing attack. Also, like , it gives me a sente follow-up.

(98)

I think this is as large as any of the available moves on the edges.

(97)

I think this is bigger than the monkey jump because it has a sente follow-up and secures my group (if you had captured this stone, I might have had to add a move to ensure life).

(96)

I have to agree that was a mistake.

(95)

I'm glad you played where you did, instead of at a because I've been concerned about the possibility of a cut at b, because you have stones on either side. Since you played , I can fix the problem in sente like this. I realize that I now can't kill, but at least I get something out of the deal, in sente.

(94)

Gote, but I don't think I have a choice.

(93)

I'm not sure either. Now that I look at it more carefully, I think you might be right.

(92)

I had done some reading earlier and decided that doesn't work. Let's see if I was right.

(91)

I've been feeling that I can probably get seki, maybe even a kill at the top, and this seems a good way to start. If it fails, I imagine I'll end in sente, so a few points loss at worst.

Moves 81-90  

(90)

Is this an example of Gote No Sente?

Alex Weldon: I think it's just an example of gote.

(89)

Yeah, about the right time for it, I'd say.

(88)

This is a largish sente.

(87)

I'm really not sure about this move. Although my territory is fairly secure, I'm not confident about how to react to you playing a reduction move around this point. It seems like playing/preventing the monkey jump and, say, saving/killing the marked White stone are close to miai and gote for both of us, so I'm not overly concerned about playing either of them until you play one.

Migeru

Oh, no, 5th-line territory!

(86)

I am not sure how big is, but it seems more dangerous than said monkey jump.

(85)

I think capturing this stone is quite large. I also thought about a monkey jump in the top left. Interesting that this is the first capture of the game.

(84)

This is better than in gote. (Kibitzers: Note Holigor's comment further down this page, at move 34)

(83)

I'm very happy that you played defensively. I was dreading a mutual damage kind of thing. Anyway, smacks of aji keshi, but I don't see how I'll ever be able to cut, and this helps a lot for securing the bottom side.

Migeru

How does it make you feel that was the mutual damage I was considering?

HolIgor: It is not simpy the mutual damage. It is a bent, which is one of the most important things in go. Who bends whom, who dominates and who has to reply. The value of such moves are so large that they are played in fuseki and not this late in the game. Now white has good two walls around a good piece of territory. Black has to invent some risky plan to erase that territory, while playing 3 first he had a natural sente erasure.

That's not to mention double hane.

Double hane  

White has to connect at to prevent a ladder, so black captures.

Second line crawling  

So, white has to crawl on the second line. Even after super solid 9 white has almost nothing at the bottom. And it is not over yet. white has to continue playing here to prevent 'a'.

Bent rules.

(82)

I seriously considered some kind of mutual damage play, but I absolutely can't allow a cut at a. Somehow the attachments at b and c didn't seem right.

(81)

Well, the marked Black stone certainly is the largest (gote) endgame on the board, and one that I was really hoping to get to play myself. Anyway, I think this move looks like a pretty good keshi. If I can end the ensuing sequence in sente to secure my bottom territory, I think I'll be in good shape.

Moves 71-80  

unkx80: It is more natural for to be played at x. It asserts more pressure on the three white stones.

(80)

I think we may be in macroendgame already. I considered e, but I can't play there as a result of not playing at f --- talk about delayed effects. It seems g is smaller than and does not really prevent you from playing at e if you want.

(79)

I don't think I could connect to the right side anyway. Making points in the center wasn't a possibility for either of us. Anyway, I might as well make shape, because I can't see anything better to do.

(78)

After and , I think this is very necessary. I am hoping to prevent you from making points in the center, even if you manage to connect to the left. Cutting you off from the right keeps the pressure up so you have to concentrate on living rather than making points.

(77)

Really. Hmm. As my chess program, Kasparov's Gambit used to say to me with raised eyebrows, "I hadn't considered this move." That's not to say it's bad... although it seems not in keeping with your aggressive stance the last few moves. I was thinking you might go for b (a mistake, if I read it correctly, since it seems to lead to a semeai that I win), or the move I would have played in your position, d. Anyway, you're basically inviting me to seal you in, but I'm going to push first, to reduce the future threat of Black b.

(76)

It's high time for this: I've been meaning to play it for a while now. b was the obvious reply to your move, but as often happens with obvious moves I don't think it would have been a good idea because of the cuts at c. Also, I think I will have one more chance to cut off from the left side, but if I had cut you first you might have played around and made my life harder and yours easier.

(75)

This move has some problems with it, enough so that I was not able to read it out completely. Depending on what you do, I think there's a strong chance we may end up in a semeai for the game. Still, it's either this or play submissively.

(74)

I may have to sacrifice the marked stone and you'll likely end up connected, but I don't think I'll die.

(73)

Well, you've got balls. Looks like this game is going to end up with a big kill one way or another. No way out of it now, so let's do it.

Migeru

Thank you! I was actually expecting you to play at , but is much better, I must say.

Alex Weldon

The problem with is that if I try to connect, I think I have to sacrifice my marked stone, which would give you enough territory on the right side to win the game.

(72)

Let's see how this turns out. I think I can keep you disconnected.

(71)

I was expecting the marked Black stone, although I have a suspicion that it's actually too early to play it now. Anyway, I thought about just stretching and letting you cut me off, in return for continuing my leaning attack... but it seemed that I have nowhere to go, so it would end up coming down to "kill the black group or die," which is not how I want this game to go.

Moves 61-70  

(70)

This is a last attempt at keeping you disconnected. Even if it fails, I think I can use this stone to good effect.

(69)

is definitely from the right direction. If you attacked from the other side, you'd be in danger of losing your whole top side group. As for , I thought about turning at i, but decided this move is more likely to result in connection to the right side.

(68)

A play at g is safer but this is a stronger attack on your group's shape. I wonder whether this is the right direction to attack from: the alternative is playing at , as I don't think I should push a second time.

(67)

I think is, in fact, the only move, really, which is unfortunate, because pushing helps me attack your topside group. Incidentally, you didn't put an f anywhere, so I don't know what the other move you considered was, but is certainly better than d.

(66)

I think this is the right move in this situation. I also consirered d and f.

(65)

seems a little slow and overconcentrated to me. Now, this move for me is kind of bad shape, because is already in place to be an angle play on my formation, which is a good attacking move. However, I'm aiming at a leaning attack on your weak group. I also considered jumping once more, or playing at myself, hoping for an attach and draw back combination, but the former seemed too passive, while the latter had the problem that it didn't look good for me if you haned towards the center, rather than the edge.

Migeru

I was actually expecting you to jump to e. I agree that is overconcentrated, should I maybe have played at d?

Alex Weldon

Yeah, e was the obvious first thought, which is another reason I didn't want to play it. I honestly don't know what was best for , or what I would have played in the situation. d still doesn't look great, but probably better than . I really don't know. Any observer care to comment?

(64)

My first impulse was to play at , but the continuation seemed problematic. I prefer to d.

(63)

Ikken tobi is never wrong.

(62)

Trying to strengthen my heavy group by attacking your weak one.

(61)

This seems to serve a triple purpose, increasing the threat of a cut at a, preventing you from cutting at b and attacking your heavy top-side group on a large scale at the same time.

Moves 51-60  

(60)

I don't know that this is the best move I have, but it is a vital point for shape, and it seems to offer some protection against both b and an attack from . Anyway, I think I already traded my big corner for the group when I played . I just hope the trade was at least even.

(59)

The purpose of playing instead of b was to maybe get this in sente, which is a very important move (because Black playing here would be very large, and sente). Actually, I'm not entirely sure this is sente, but if you choose to ignore it, it makes the corner into a somewhat difficult life and death problem that I'm either too lazy or incapable of reading out. I think a plain old monkey jump allows you to live, just barely, in gote, but there might be some other, more clever way for me to kill. Anyway, is that what you thought the purpose of was? If so, good job.

HolIgor: White should consider playing shape destroying 10 at this point.

One of the variations.  

Black is in great trouble.

Migeru

What I realised is that, after , playing at b is much more damaging than before.

(58)

Still playing forced moves... By the way, I just saw why you played before b.

(57)

Honte? No. It doesn't do anything to remove aji... what it does is keep my top-side group from connecting with my left-side group. Anyway, it's a fairly inevitable move, as is this response, although I did toy with the idea of getting wacky and challenging you to a ko fight by playing at b instead.

Migeru

I thought about playing at , but I didn't see any benefits in that.

Alex Weldon

You misunderstand. Your move was good and natural, but honte isn't the right word for it, at least as I understand the term.

(56)

Honte?

(55)

This will end up hurting my squared stone, whereas b would not... but I have my reasons.

(54)

Also inevitable, as playing at results in bad shape.

(53)

Inevitable.

(52)

I can't play at ...

(51)

I'm not sure the marked black stone really protects against both cuts, although it certainly reduces the threat. It seems kind of strange to me, though. Looks out of place. Anyway, I'm not quite sure what to do about it, and it doesn't threaten anything, exactly, so I'll just take sente and cut here... which seems like a more severe cut anyway.

Migeru

Guess what? I'm not sure either. One thing it does is make ladders favourable to me. I could have taken in gote, but then you get to cut at b or c...

Alex Weldon

I certainly can't say it's a bad move. And it did "prevent" me from cutting at either point in the sense that I didn't do so. There's still a lot of aji around there though.

Moves 41-50  

(50)

Trying to protect against a and b simultaneously. There are other things I'd rather do, but this seems urgent. I don't know that the particular move I chose will be effective, though.

HolIgor: Don't do such things in open environment. Protecting two points with one move works in the close quarters, where the situation cannot change much furthur in the game. But in the center this means playing thin, leaving too many opportunities for the opponent.

That was a general comment. Now about the opportunity that black missed. I am taking in terms of local moves, so let us forget at the moment about the hole at the top.

Double hane  

Black has to go ahead with double hane . Just several moves ago Black was satisfied that he played at the head of two stones. Black has to develop that success, otherwise the advantage would slip away.

Double hane is a bent again. Black obtains a dominating position in the center. If White cuts at a, one of the cuts Black was afraid of is fixed. Isn't that good? A cut at b creates for White one weak group without fixing the problems of the group above.

Another local thing.

Fixing the hole at the top  

defends the hole at the top tactically. Of course, aji remains, so it is rather thin, white gets a sente descent at a, but it is an attack of White's top too.

(49)

White at e will cut, but then I worry a bit about my group, since it would be at least as weak as your three stones... giving you one weak group between two weakish groups is too good for you, so I'll leave it for now and work on stabilizing my own group. If you spend a move patching up, I'll end in sente, which is good enough.

(48)

It turns out that this is the only way I can avoid becoming meaningless. Grumble, grumble.

(47)

I certainly can't see anything else but , unless you had some fancy plans for a furikawari. Anyway, since you answered , I imagine that you'll answer this as well, unless you see something I don't.

(46)

I wish I could find a move you didn't expect.

(45)

Well, served its purpose, getting you to answer while removing the threat of a cut if I play ... but I imagine this will get an answer, whereas playing immediately would allow you to atari at d. Anyway, it's always a good sign when your opponent says he doesn't like the move you made him play, but likes the alternatives even less. :) In retrospect, though, I think maybe I should've played before the and 39.

(44)

I don't like this, but I like the alternatives even less. At least now I have a claim to the corner.

(43)

Indeed, I'd say is the only move in the situation. A bit of reading shows at to be problematic, so I'll play this first and see what happens.

(42)

This looks good, as if I had just hane'd at the head of two stones.

(41)

Drawing back seems bad, so extending downwards is probably right. I thought about playing a counter-hane or crosscut, but neither looks good. I'm hoping that cuts at a and b are almost miai.

Moves 31-40  

(40)

I think this is consistent with trying to play for influence.

(39)

This was the first move that sprang to mind, since the horse's head is good shape, and contact moves are good for defence. I also thought about a shoulder hit one point to the right, figuring that it would let me out into the center and leave you with an open skirt. In the end, I settled on this, though... a little more adventuresome. By the way, I think seems a little mild. Maybe you should have made a leaning attack, by leaning on the two stones on top, e.g. playing contact on top of ?

Migeru

Maybe was indecisive, but I actually wanted to make a move that would threaten both of your groups rather than attacking one and leaving the other alone.

HolIgor: For a better shape here see Shape Problem 4.

Alex Weldon

Certainly, trying to attack two weak groups at once is a good goal, but the top side group isn't that weak. In any case, you've essentially driven them apart now, so it will be hard to continue the splitting attack in a strong way. If that was your goal, maybe you should have driven them towards each other first, and split just before they could connect. I still think leaning on the top group would be better, though. I may be wrong, of course.

Migeru

Isn't it a good thing that I didn't need more than one move to split the two groups?

Alex Weldon

Certainly splitting groups is a good thing, but a splitting attack is more severe the closer together the groups are. I couldn't have connected them in one move anyway, and the proverbs warn against running with one weak group towards another weak group. If you look at the situation now, neither of my groups is in particularly terrible danger, which supports my opinion that, while your supposed splitting attack did indeed split them, it wasn't severe enough to really be considered an attack on either of them. Anyway, I'll start a page /Splitting Attack Discussion.

(38)

The usual response to the nobi at b is an extension to a or c, but I already have a stone at . I was considering pressing on the left side, but I think it is important to keep your two groups separated before attacking the weaker one.

(37)

The usual response to this contact is a simple nobi to b. That strikes me as much too heavy in this context, though. I've experimented with this one-space jump a few times before, and it usually turns out alright for me.

(36)

Yes, you're right.

(35)

What exchange? You really expect me to bother with that lonely stone? It isn't doing anything. I think I'll just take sente and invade.

(34)

I can't launch a severe attack at the top, but I have sente and I think I can finish this exchage in sente, too.

HolIgor: At this moment black has to consider playing in the corner. It took me a long time to realize that 3 and 4 are miai. As soon as white takes one of the points, black's honte is to take the other.

An important move.  

White threatens with the following variation.

Moves 31-40  

So, black has no time to defend the corner and has to jump into the centre. The losses are big.

unkx80: I would like to point you to 4-4 point low approach low extension, slide, 3-3 for a more thorough discussion on this position.

(33)

The obvious move, and, incidentally, cannot be considered a pincer because it leaves room for this extension. The reason I played at the point I did was for this reason; whichever side you chose to approach, I would have room for the extension, so you couldn't launch a severe attack.

(32)

Extension and approach. Approaching on the other side would be wrong because I would be playing on my stronger side (I don't want to say "close to thickness" because I'm not thick, but that's the idea).

(31)

The bottom side doesn't seem urgent enough to me to be worth taking gote, which I suspect is what will happen if I continue there now, so I'll take the last big point. It seems to me that if I used the cut immediately, you'd just atari and force the capture, giving me a big bottom side, but helping your moyo a bit, and, more importantly, giving you sente to take this point yourself. It's a tough call, though.

Migeru

Stronger players tenuki more often :-) By the way, just to check that I understand your move correctly, you played where you did and on the third line to give yourself a and as miai for a base, right?

Alex Weldon

Yes, that's correct.

Moves 21-30  

(30)

The cut at j seems less severe.

(29)

Connection is the only move, and is correct. The reason this is not playable without a favorable ladder is that if Black has ladder breakers, Black can atari at instead. Anyway, I've left you two cutting points, which was my goal.

(28)

The ladder-breakers in the top right are certainly a pain. I think you would play here if I played anywhere else, so this must be my best move.

(27)

Well, I don't want to let you get too much of a moyo on the left side, and the ladder is good for me, so rather than the usual hane at i, I'll wedge in at .

(26)

Trying to go for influence vs. territory.

(25)

Rather boring move, but since it combines a kakari with extending from thickness, I suppose it's probably good. I agree that your move is big, and wish I could have gotten there first.

Migeru

The question is whether it is a reasonable compensation for your rather large corner.

(24)

I think this is big, but not sente. I also considered d and e. I think if had been at a it would have made sense for me to add another stone, but not in the actual game position where you have already set up a ladder.

(23)

I thought about at a instead, since I didn't want to allow you b in sente, but then realized that it would allow you a cut at c.

Migeru

There is a cut at c??? Now seriously, I have to think whether it is time for tenuki and where to play it. I am also considering adding one stone to the sacrifice.

Alex Weldon

If I'd played 3 at a, you could pull the stone out (I'd answer at one line below a), then you could wedge in at f, I'd play atari from underneath, you could connect, but connecting would be sente, because if I failed to answer, you could cut at g and kill the corner. After I answer to save the corner, you could push through and cut with h and c. This is a bit confusing, so if you want, I can put a diagram on some other page.

(22)

Settling.

(21)

I think this move needs no explanation.

Moves 11-20  

The point was to try and make that eye in sente, so I can safely take a big point somewhere else. If I end up in gote---like it seems I will---the whole thing may have been a waste.

Well, you can get one eye for sure by sacrificing , which will make you pretty stable. Gives me the whole corner, though. Anyway, we'll see what happens.

I think I can settle, but I don't know about sente. If I have read correctly, I need to sacrifice .

(17)

I don't think you can settle. Unless I've read incorrectly, I think works.

HolIgor

I took the liberty to rearrange the content of the page putting the recent comments at the top. I believe it is much easier to read this way. I have a question. You are playing an interesting sequence in the lower right corner. Would you like to compare it with joseki?

Migeru

Please feel free to open up a discussion, as long as you don't give away the "right" followup :-)

(16)

I have sente, but I think I need to settle in sente. I was considering e, too. I am not that worried about the peep at c and cut at b because I have a ladder breaker.

(15)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's Fred Seki? as well, but it doesn't look too bad. The only problems I see are that it doesn't put much pressure on me, allowing me to play this move to stabilize my lonely corner stone, and that it likely allows me a kikashi at c sometime in the future. As for this move, it doesn't quite complete the right side (there's still an invasion point at d) and leaves my bottom side group attackable, but I figured stabilizing a single stone in the corner is more urgent than a less weak group on the side. Incidentally, I don't see anything wrong with b, as opposed to what you played, but I'm not particularly strong, so you may be right.

Migeru

Apparently you can play this move even after at b.

Alex Weldon

Actually, I kind of like at c. There's probably something wrong with it, but to my 5 kyu eyes, it looks more dynamic.

(14)

I think this is a deviation from joseki, but I don't like the shape that results from playing at b.

(13)

You needn't worry about an immediate cut, since you atari one line below and push through, blighting the white stone below. That cut will be significant quite soon, though. Anyway, I prefer the attach-extend combo to the direct connection played in the older joseki, which is why I chose .

(12)

This seems to be the only move. A cut at b is not joseki, but it still worries me.

(11)

I considered making a two-point extension, but then I didn't like the result if you attach at in the corner, so I decided to attach on the outside instead.

Moves 1-10  

For a while I thought about playing at g or h, then decided on this one.

Playing the usual kyu-level joseki starting at White a, will give you a moyo that is way too huge, while I'll be stuck to just one side of the board. Therefore, I must pincer. Choice of pincer is usually beyond our kyu-level strategy, so I'll go with what I believe to be the most common pincer for the one space high approach. That is, one space low pincer. If I get a chance to play f or thereabouts while attacking, I'll have a nice framework (although still too flat, so I'll probably play on the fourth line instead).

What I have in mind requires the high rather than the low approach.

Migeru

More dilemmas: for a while I considered playing at c, then at d, but this invites you to complete your shimari. Moreover, if you had replied with e instead of a, I would not have been quite sure how to continue.

Dilemmas. I thought about going one line lower and to the left (the hoshi), since that would constitute an ideal extension from my hypotehtical shimari, should I be allowed to make it. But that would invite an immediate invasion, and unless I could settle the top right in sente, you'd stop me from making the enclosure anyway. I decided to stick to joseki. This is a dilemma I've had in games before. Perhaps I should pose it as a BQM later. I'm too flat on the right now.

Migeru

I have read and been told that at b is dangerous because it leaves you with an open skirt. Still, I am often inclined to play it.

No.

No need to deviate from joseki yet.

Let's build a side first. There'll be time to get into fights.

Making an enclosure when you already have three corners seems too overconcentrated. An approach makes sense. I considered a wedge on either the left or top, but decided they're pretty much miai.

No need to harass you with a yet.