Moves 161 to 170
- emeraldemon: K13 'a'. Now I wish we'd gotten that point.
- Chew: I prefer K12 'b'.
- Andy: I think responding to is too small. How about c (B16)? I don't like either a or b as a direct response to B161 anyway.
- sh: Alternatively we can set on d at l13
- tapir: Let us start with counting. We (Herman's last count in the discussion) did claim 5-6 point in the whole upper center area to begin with. (The captured black stone + 3 points near by.) If Black now tries to cut and capture M13 is probably the biggest with up to 6 points in gote, capturing M15 may be a bit larger locally, but may give us some forcing moves against the black center group again. K15 is three points only. (It looks large, but since there was no white territory behind this stone it isn't.) Playing a still allows Black to capture K15 with L14 (in gote), b defends one point on the left, but lets Black capture K15 in sente or M13 in gote (again with L14), imo. d saves all stones with one point less on the left. But what happens if we tenuki? Cutting directly gives Black only K15 (3 points, in sente but as we played somewhere else it is actually gote), d doesn't work, b threatens a lot. Next Black take J12 making miai of drawing out F12 (not affordable) or cutting off K11 (~6 points), but if we play there, next L14 is big (14 points in gote or so?). It boils down to letting black capture K11 if tenuki. While big threat moves are probably playable in sente (like c or S9) this may well be a waste of ko threats. All this I figured out only while writing this entry. I second d.
unkx80 chooses L13 (d). Actually, I think all the suggested moves are suboptimal. Tapir already pointed out that K13 (a) and K12 (b) invites the peep at L14. L13 (d) is much better than K13 (a) and K12 (b), but I think playing this move at L15 would be even better. If we choose to tenuki for this move, I do not think B16 (c) is the best point to play. Due to the presence of B161, I have no confidence that B16 (c) is sente.
By the way, when I do counting, I have always assumed that white has no points in the vicinity of B161.
MrTenuki: Comment from neutral observer: please correct me if I'm wrong-- I thought that the "5-6 points" estimation is referring to the F12 area?
tapir: Yes exactly - 0 points in the B161 + 5-6 points in the F12 area. I tried to point out that we can't and don't need to make territory in the B161 area :)
unkx80: I totally agree with tapir's analysis. I do know that the 5-6 points come from the area after W156. Think about it, White cannot expect to get both W156 and B161. We occupied the larger W156, so we expect that Black will get B161. =)
Moves 151 to 160
- Andy: We have to respond. a (T2) leaves a ko threat behind, but ensures this group has two eyes regardless of anything that happens later.
- Fwiffo: We've got plenty of eye-space, so b (S2) leaves fewer ko-threats.
unkx80 chooses S2 (b). I choose S2 for leaving behind fewer ko threats. Another move I did consider is S3, but the difference is negligible.
Herman chooses S1 (a): Only move, B157 was the largest endgame move.
- Fwiffo: I'll suggest a L8 again.
- emerlademon: I still like b b15. I was wrong in one of the variations, but even in the one tapir showed it's still one point better than the extend.
- Andy: c (F11). 4 points reverse sente. (although I like both sente moves above better)
- tapir: d B3 is not a very serious proposal. But it is either a 1/3 point sente or a 2 2/3 (?) gote move afaik. Is this correct?
unkx80 chooses F11 (c). I assess this reverse sente to be larger - at least 6.5 points, perhaps more if we consider the rather bad aji if black gets to play here first, affecting the eye space of the entire white group as well as the endgame at the upper left corner (think about the E12 chain, and the possibility that black B16 suddenly becomes sente against the corner). I have been waiting for this suggestion for quite a while, and I thought it is somewhat unusual that black have not played here already.
As for B15 (b), I feel that it isn't as urgent as F11 (c). Black can block, but it's isn't sente. Besides, black can make at most about 6 points on the left edge.
I'm not choosing L8 (a) now because black may resist in such a way that if we then tenuki, then it might cause collateral damage to our own territory, especially if we choose to play F11 (c). In other words, I don't think L8 (a) is double sente as advertised, and I think F11 (c) is more urgent.
I'll think about tapir's question a bit more later.
- tapir: Take all remaining sente and win this game. B16 (Black can't answer at B15 or A15 will be sente as well).
- Fwiffo: I like a, but b (S7) is also big and it's double-sente.
- Andy: We're going to get both a and b, so it doesn't matter which we take first. I suppose b is better because it is also sente for black.
- Fwiffo: Although I'm not recommending it for the current move, c (L8) is also double-sente while simultaneously making z (O5) gote for white. And it would be annoying if white got c.
- emeraldemon: I believe d is one point better than a. Compare these two diagrams. Both end with black having 4 points, but white gets an extra point in the jump version. Both are white sente.
- tapir: Just think about at . Atari! But probably at is not very good for white either.
- Chew: I'm not at all confident about this, but could we take a11 ('e') in sente prior to taking 'd'? Taking 'd' or 'a' makes 'e' gote, so if we think they would answer both, getting both is better.
- Fwiffo: Doesn't work (see diagram below)
unkx80 chooses S7 (b). I like B16 (a), B15 (d), and S7 (b). I don't know which is better, but I choose S7 (b) because it might also be sente for black. Note that if black manages to get both S7 and Q7, then there is quite a bit of strange aji regardless whether white captures a black stone with P5.
L8 (c) is also interesting. I didn't think much about A11 (e), but we often play from the wider side first. Besides, Fwiffo also makes some valid objections about A11 (e).
makes d not work and makes a gote. Also note z. If is a throw-in...
- Chew: It's a throw-in, let's capture (a at C1).
- Fwiffo: I think black screwed up the move order. Capture at b (B3). Black must capture the original hane stone, but it's gote, as is their follow-up at a.
- Andy: I agree with Fwiffo. I was wondering whether white can just tenuki altogether from this position, but capturing at b seems even better. I didn't like how moves over here tended to end in gote, so this is nice.
Herman chooses C1 (a): This is the correct move. Either move is sente, but capturing at B3 (b) loses points compared to this.
Fwiffo: Confusion... Since extending at b gets black an extra liberty, won't we eventually have to spend one additional move here because of that, thereby losing points? Maybe there needs to be a page for this. Cause I'm still completely confused about the endgame counting with this corner.
tapir: Interestingly Black doesn't even think about the move we suggested as best practice for Black. Fwiffo there is much discussion below and BQM396 - we can add it to Endgame tesuji (the black moves) as well.
unkx80: Whether black extends at B3 or not, the points is still the same.
Moves 141 to 150
- Fwiffo: Atari at a (C2) is forced.
Herman chooses C2 (a): Only move.
- emeraldemon: s7 a forces a block to save the 2 stones.
- Andy: b M12. Since black took gote to make some territory in the center, maybe we can do the same. I do like emeraldemon's suggestion of a though, and Tapir's sure-to-be-forthcoming suggestion of E1 also looks good/better to me.
- Chew: I'll stick with B15 (c) for reduction in sente. If they play anything besides B16, we can just take sente elsewhere. Not sure if it's AS sente as A, though.
- Fwiffo: B16 (d) is sente and has a couple interesting follow-ups.
- tapir: Actually it is not sure that I am going to propose this move anymore. Our captains seem not to like this move anyway. E1 e
Herman chooses E1 (e): I thought that locally, D1 would be better, but this is actually fine too. It is double sente and definitely the biggest move on the board right now. I like the other suggestion as well, except M12 (b) because that is gote, and thus not big enough right now.
unkx80: I was actually waiting for Tapir to suggest E1. Compared to Black D1, the difference is at least one point, but I suspect the difference doesn't exceed two points. But the double sente makes it big. In any case, Herman made the move first. =)
Unlike Herman, I quite liked E1 myself. Just that I never got a chance to play it when I played, usually because there was a more urgent move elsewhere. I sort of knew that Herman was waiting for D1, but in my opinion it might not be sente if played earlier. Therefore I would have chosen E1 quite early, if given the chance. After all, the difference between Black D1 and Black E1 is only a fraction of a point.
A move like M12 (b) is usually quite a bit smaller than it seems. All other suggestions are quite fine.
D1 vs. E1 discussion
- White 5 + 2*2 + 1 (net ko balance if won), Black 0 = +10
- White 5 + 2*2, Black 0 + 0 (net ko balance if won) = +9
Later there is a ko over the stone, which Black takes first. If White wins, it is better as with D1, if Black wins, it is one point less. The given variation is what the professionals played... I made a BQM396 about this situation once.
Herman: Yes, this is reasonable. This variation is 1/3 point better for white than the D1 variation.
- White 5 + 2*2, Black 1 + 0 (net ko balance if won) = +8
Add the risk involved that White can make a flower viewing ko later (and instantly connecting would lose sente) as a plus for white.
Herman: This case is better for black, but it is only reasonable if the flower ko is not big. Hence white should prefer D1 only if the ko is small, or in extreme cases where he has lots of ko threats to waste.
- Andy: a Q11.
- Fwiffo: I concur.
- tapir: Biggest point on the left edge (imho) b B16. (After x y is sente again and can't be counterhane'd. (Of course I like E1 but I doubt our captains will play it, anyway.)
Herman chooses Q11 (a): This is really the only move, IMO. It keeps black eyeless along the right edge, and thus keeps their center group in need of attention
unkx80: Let's say I made a mistake in the last move. I should have waited for a suggestion to bump at B145 before jumping in at W144. I had read it out earlier, but totally forgot about it when making the move later.
- Chew: I was looking at the options. With the sequence I showed below, it looks like if we take S8, we cannot take the two stone above even if black tenukis. Since there's not a big followup, S8 is gote. I estimate about 4 points gote. The monkey jump in the top left is gote, since it doesn't threaten much more, and it's 7-8 points gote. P5 is tempting, because it is 4 points in gote, but it assures a connection for our corner, preventing us from having to defend as hard later. B15 is sente, and reduces black by about 4 points. F11 is gote, but nets about 5 while also defending a little aji. These are the best non-ko-threat moves I see, so I'll recommend B15 (a) as I said it's sente. I know we're mostly supposed to do suggestions, but I figure a little bit of open discussion amongst the kyu soldiers is kosher? Also I need the practice in endgame analysis. If this much analysis from soldiers is not okay, let me know and I will not in the future.
- unkx80: I would actually favour the soldiers coming out with such analysis and discussing them. Unlike the Malkovich games being played at godiscussions.com, we captains don't have too much liberty to state our analysis to avoid giving away too much on unplayed moves.
- Fwiffo: Actually, I think b (S8) is sente. Black will have to connect because there's no eye-space along the edge any more, and they can't get two eyes in the center.
- Chew: Thanks, I forgot to consider the safety of the larger group.
- tapir: I propose a move that should win some points in sente - i did extensive reasoning some moves ago. Hane at E1 c. (a is a sente losing points imo, I would play one line above in sente later the hane on the first line is sente as well - because black can't counterhane. The result resembles that of the monkey jump but doesn't lose sente.)
- jpocket: Although I think b is probably the best move for playing on the right side and a good way to use the aji in that area, I would be inclined to play at c first, since its sente and the only play remaining on that part of the board.
- Andy: Without a lot of pressing moves elsewhere, how about d D1? This is more reverse sente than sente, but has a sente follow-up and removes aji in this corner. It has the advantage of not being as complicated as c.
unkx80 chooses S8 (b). I think the value of this move is about 6 points locally. It might also be locally sente. In addition, it threatens the eye space of the huge Black dragon. (However, don't fantasize about killing the group yet.) These factors make S8 unusually large.
The other suggestions are all reasonable. The choice between E1 (c) or D1 (d) depends on the temperature. This is also a reason why before B113, I did not choose to play the monkey jump of G1 despite it being suggested quite a few times. I was actually looking for the one-space jump at F2, which is much more likely to be sente compared to the monkey jump.
- tapir: a S8. Scaring black, threatening to draw out our single stone taking away the S7 from black, probably making some points on the right edge. Difficult to count. I put a total count of the game right now on the discussion page.
- Fwiffo: I think we can play b, Q9, saving the Q10 stone. Even if it's not huge, the threat is very big, so we can do it in sente.
- Andy: c, R11.
- sh: Another option is d at b16. If black blocks at b15, white can reduce at a13, connecting either to b16 or b10.
- jasavol1: The peep at b14 (e) is 6 points in gote, I think.
Herman chooses R11 (c): This move makes a few points, prevents our stone from being captured, and creates options for reducing the right. It also puts pressure on Black to connect their center group or make eyes for it in gote. I prefer this move over S8 (a) because it does more to deny black eyes on this side, and I prefer it over Q9 (b) because that move forces black to make shape with R9, while gaining little (there is no eye at P9 anyway). Reducing the territory on the left is not as urgent, IMO, as this side of the board. Almost any move we play on the left is bound to end in gote. We will mostly destroy Black's territory there with any of them regardless, so they are all about equally valuable. I prefer B16 (d) over B14 (e) slightly, because it has sente follow-up options and makes points in the corner.
Moves 131 to 140
- tapir: I propose a. In my opinion the best way to play on the right edge later.
- Fwiffo: N19 b. We should finish the local sequence or our previous move becomes lost and meaningless. If black ignores us we've got a follow-up to chip away at their top even more.
unkx80 chooses N19 (b). Just finish the sequence...
- Andy: c (R11) from last time. save a white stone, firm up some territory
- Chew: This is a shot in the dark and may be too small. But I'm suggesting a at d5. It's small (one point reduction), but it seems fairly sente. It's one point reduction if they respond, and around 11 if they don't.
- Andy: This is much better saved for a ko threat. It's not going away any time soon if we don't use it right away.
- jasavol1: A14 (b).
- Fwiffo: With the last move, we sorta considered d (M18) miai with G18 for reducing the top. Since black prevented one, perhaps we should take the other?
- tapir: e E1. (This stone is a sacrifice to gain 1 point and big ko threats in - double - sente. See below.)
Herman chooses M18 (d): I agree with Fwiffo's reasoning, we had miai options, they took one, we take the other. A14 (b) is still too small, especially since it is gote. R11 is still very big, but since we also still have options from the S6 side, it is not as urgent as M18. D5 (a) is sente, but still too small and thus a waste of a ko threat for now. E1 (a) is tricky. I don't agree with this move, and although tapir makes good points below, I still think it is not the right move. I can't give more diagrams than I already have without feeling like I'm cheating, sorry.
- Fwiffo: They've connected in gote, so let's take the next big sente endgame, which I think must a (E18).
- emeraldemon: b (A14), the monkey jump. It may not be sente for us, but it's quite a large reduction (8 points or so?)
- Chew: If a is not big enough, we can consider c at R11.
- tapir: d is probably the second biggest move after a. (double sente, big threat)
- Fwiffo: Go team!
Herman chooses E18 (a): This is huge, plus it makes miai of another move here and a move in the upper right for reducing black's area at the top, so they cannot expect to make much there after this. B14 is not big enough. Although generally a monkey jump is worth around 7 points, it is hard for black to even make seven points in this area with a move, so they can ignore this move (perhaps forcing D14 first). R11 (c) is also quite big, but E18 (a) is bigger, IMO. E1 (d) doesn't really work, because of the cut & throw-in aji:
Cutting at a for ko is too risky because of black's follow-up at b.
Tapir: Isn't White better off than without the exchange after (in sente so far) + leaving behind some pretty big ko threats?
Even after Black b in comparison 1, White at c is 1 point better than comparison 2. Not counting the value of ko threats, or the possibility of a white play first. There are more possible complications but white ends better than in comparison 2. Well, probably one has to discuss what happens after Black at c in the Comparison 1
a is a 4 point gote. If black takes it is 2 points better for black than comparison 2, if white 2 points better for white. So on average it is the same as comparison 2, if black moves first! If white moves first it is better than comparison 2. However it is too complicated (possible kos etc.) to count for me, if not fighting the big ko it should be 4-5 points better (black has 2 points territory less, 2 stones captured, one point ko). So Black first averaging the same as comparison 2 and White first averaging 4-5 points better (no big ko, connecting everywhere to avoid) - so it should be on average be 2-2.5 points better for us. In double sente... however there are the ko fights to look at... but even if not risking anything with we should end better. If all other big sente points are played I probably will propose it once more. But only once more... :)
ThorAvaTahr: Forgive my intrusion, but what about this diagram? Black 'a' and 'b' are both answered by white 'c'. Black 1 seems like an overplay to me.
Herman: I'll play at d, how do you want to save the white stones? :-)
unkx80: I have my opinions on this position, but I shall comment on it only when it has been played out.
tapir: Well the good message is, I count white ahead even if we leave this as sente for black. For more see BQM396 - please recognize that the sequence there ends in sente for the player in the situation equivalent to that in which white is here.
- emeraldemon: E12 a. Connects back, threatens the cut still.
- Fwiffo: I'll suggest b (F11), but it's inferior, IMO; it would allow black to connect in sente (see diagram below).
Herman chooses E12 (B): a and b are the only viable options, and since Fwiffo's analysis of the disadvantage of F11 (b) is completely correct, a is the correct move.
- Andy: Doesn't Fwiffo's sequence lead to a potentially nasty followup for white though using the aji of the H5 stone? (see below)
- Fwiffo: I don't think it's worth giving up sente. We've still got aji there, and there is a lot of big sente endgame left.
- Herman: In your diagram, you have added a white stone (I have put a mark on it)...
- Andy: Yes, the marked stone is white's gote move.
- Herman: Ah, I see, I missed that :-) Yes, white can get big endgame here, and if it is big enough, black will have to take gote anyway
- Andy: a b9. Connect. See what black does next.
- tapir: B8 b to provide a comprehensive reasoning. (now A10 would be sente for black = bad)
unkx80 chooses B9 (a). Connection is necessary. B8 (b) gives black the atari at A10, which is not as good as B9 (a).
Moves 121 to 130
- Fwiffo: There is a huge amount of sente endgame out there right now just waiting for us. I feel like playing a, the double-sente point at E1. Black getting to play D1 would be super annoying.
- tapir: black has C3 q and D1 p after a, it may still be sente though. i like d. as it prevents a sente move of black in sente.
- andy: is that the same thing as double sente?
- Chew: andy: I don't think so, I think it's reverse sente. It's sente for black, but I'm not convinced it's sente for us. I think it sets up a sente followup, but is not sente itself. Take this impression with a grain of salt, as you're better than me.
- Fwiffo: If we play a, black blocks, we connect, then black must connect too. I don't know how it could possibly be gote. The cut at q doesn't work and black can't avoid connecting.
- Chew: Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought the question was if d was double sente.
- Chew: I still like the threat of b at e18, though we should probably get 'a' first
- emeraldemon: N17 c has been suggested before. I'm not sure if black is still in danger of losing stones, but it's at least a reduction.
- Chew: I don't think black still is in danger. I imagine they would play M17, then when we extend, they could take O13. The connection would be in gote, but they wouldn't particularly lose anything. Also, if we're going to play up there, I think we'd be better off at M18
- Andy: Since black is worried about their connection, why don't we make them worry again with d E11? This also forestalls a potentially annoying peep at F12. A black play at D1 doesn't excite me much since we can defend (z?) and there's no exciting followup. I still like b, but after black's last move I think d is more urgent.
- Fwiffo: Anybody count lately? And didn't have some sort of follow-up?
- Chew: Haven't counted, though I'm not sure I could count this accurate enough to help. The followup we had planned was a monkey jump, or the peep, one space higher. However, it seems less sente to me, now that they spent a move connecting. We can take the points from them, but doing so won't threaten to kill their group entirely
unkx80 chooses E11 (d). I admit I'm not too good in endgame stuff, but I hope to retain sente with this move, while forestalling F12 as mentioned by Andy. If we get sente, then I'll choose from one of the other suggested points.
- emeraldemon: Isn't a the only move?
- Chew: Always to play the devil's advocate: depends on how big of sente the local move is. If we monkey-jump down to A14 b, we threaten to take the side middle star, preventing black from connecting and killing their group. This seems to be bigger than the bottom left corner. If they link out to connect, which I imagine they will, we can then defend after reducing them in sente. The only question I have is, if they decide to defend after the monkey jump, will we end in gote in this case. If we do, then they can get sente, which might make this bit not worth it. edit: I thought about doing the side star first, but while that move is sente, this move reduces in sente, so it seems better.
Andy: It suffices to play a.
Herman chooses C4 (a): There is no need to do anything fancy here, so we'll just play a.
- tapir: a B 17.
- Andy: b R 11. (although I like a)
- emeraldemon: c E1.
- Fwiffo: d E18 (was going to go with a but was beaten to it). Let's keep this sente train a-rollin'.
- Chew: Again for variety and options since the obvious are taken: e at n13. It's pretty darn sente. I don't THINK it's actually a good idea because it forces black to defend. I suggest it because a and d are taken, and nothing that's not sente is worth suggesting at this point.
unkx80 chooses B17 (a). Nothing really special, just playing what I think is the biggest move. This is a large almost sente for either player. N13 (e) is not a good suggestion, because it induces Black to fix his weakness at or around Q11 as mentioned, which is loss making for us. All other suggestions are reasonable.
- emeraldemon: a, the capture.
- tapir: I second this. a captures a stone in sente, if black gives atari we can play a ko or connect in sente. While b is sente as well, as it forces black to connect it leaves the capture of one stone as a big endgame move unplayed - that is a loss. I fear I would not have seen this whole sequence in a game of mine though.
- jasavol1: O3 (b) to attack the group on the right.
Herman chooses N4 (a): I have very little to add to tapir's comment. Both a and b are sente and require black to connect under, but a is better endgame.
emeraldemon: I think this sequence has put us slightly in the lead. I'll admit the cross-cut didn't even occur to me, and even after it was played I didn't see how it would work. I'm afraid my intuition for these kind of tesuji isn't very good.
Andy: This result from is also better than I would have expected. We have done a good job of eating black's lunch in this area.
Fwiffo: This is going to be interesting in the review, because black obviously made some sort of mistake here. Getting everything we did seems like "too much". AND we retain sente, which gives me a happy.
- Andy: I think a (O4) with the potential followup move of x (O2) is pretty nasty.
- tapir: I like a. But added b. (Would someone be so kind and propose O3?)
- JoazBanbeck: Ok, I'll propose O3 (d). ( I just dropped by to see what it was like over here on the white team. I'm thinking of becoming a free agent. )
- emeraldemon: M5 c is solid, sente, and a gain. I think we've made a reduction in sente and can move to the many other big points on the board. If we play around here, especially without a clear plan of attack, we may do more harm than good (by making y gote for example).
- Fwiffo: The possible continuations after a are just too exciting. And with Joaz showing uncertain loyalties, I think we are seeing signs of panic in the Black camp.
- emeraldemon: Or maybe he's a double agent trying to mislead us :)
unkx80 chooses O4 (a). I'm quite surprised that they resisted this way, but I do admit that the variations are much more complicated than I originally thought. So let's play it out then! It's either they made a reading mistake or we made a reading mistake.
Moves 111 to 120
- Chew: Cross-cut to a (N3)
- Fwiffo: The cross-cut seems to be the point of W118. But to throw out other options, I'll re-suggest b (B17), which still seems to be the biggest sente endgame.
unkx80 chooses N3 (a). I don't think I want to wait for this move. Otherwise, I'll just be giving the same old commentary.
- Fwiffo: Since black responded as expected, all the big endgame moves suggested last time are still good. I'll add a (B17) which takes territory in the corner and should be sente; it threatens b (B14).
- jasavol1: Q1 (c).
- tapir: Not to forget M4 d. But we want to play all this moves, just the sequence is important.
- Chew: Since the point I love to suggest, d, is already out there, I'll forward e18 (e) as an option
- Andy: Even if we make all the sente plays that have been suggested already and black only defends passively, white is still more than 10 points behind with no potential for making that up. I suggest resignation and analysis of the game.
- tapir: I doubt your count is correct. Can you show it on review?
- Andy: well, maybe you're right, but it's going to be a come-from-behind effort on the part of white. If we're going to continue either d or e are fine with me. Here's KGS's opinion of the current situation: http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9872/picture2ox.png
- Fwiffo: Actually, as hesitant as I am to agree with the Score Esteban, I agree with Andy. We're behind on the order of 20 points or so by my count, which we can't realistically expect to make up. (Caveat: I suck at positional judgment even more than I suck generally).
unkx80 chooses M4 (d). Currently B17 (a) looks like the most obvious biggest move to play, but lets play out the aji at M4 (d) first. I think we can get sente here before returning to B17 (a). I agree that we are behind, but I don't really think we are 20 points behind. I would like to play out a few more moves first.
Herman: Quick note: I asked a 5d friend what his judgement of the position was after B117, and he indicated that he had a small preference to take white. I agree, I think white is behind on the board, but that the komi should be sufficient.
tapir: I don't get how white should be more than 15 points behind on the board according to andy and fwiffo. I put a rough count (not revealing all sequences i have in mind) on the discussion page. We should practice Endgame problems, I guess. :)
Andy: Just for chuckles tapir, what is your count if it were black to move first, i.e., what is the value of sente in this position?
tapir: At some places I counted something in the middle. On the lower right edge it is gote for black anyway - our privilege that is. And I trust our last move is sente - that is we get the moves with big threats attached in sente now - as long as we don't lose it. The only thing I am not absolutely sure is whether we can get both e and x in sente. But since the threat at x is much bigger i believe we should play this first (if black answers at e they can only destroy our corner their territory in the lower edge is much bigger). Maybe I err somewhere, but I nowhere see us being 20 points behind (if black takes all the big moves from no on we may be, but right now we have sente haven't we?)
- tapir: B14 a.
- Chew: 'b' at B10 reduces the risk of the placement at B8, seizing some of our corner space, while it threatens to move into the eyespace of the group above.
- Andy: c (E18) (again) I think white is losing now. If there's nothing we can kill we need to take all the double sente points we can get. Actually, I like Chew's b suggestion since it's bad news if black gets to play there.
- emeraldemon: Q1 d (again). I like c also, but this is easy points I think.
- Fwiffo: I'm terrible at this endgame stuff. How about e (D9)? It's at least reverse sente and continues to pressure the black left-side group.
- jasavol1: I might as well suggest E1 (f).
unkx80 chooses B10 (b). I don't know what B14 (a) achieves at this point of time, as it only leads to a local loss. The other suggestions are all reasonable. I assess B10 (b) to be the biggest endgame because of it threatens Black's eyespace, and also to avoid White's placement at B8. Therefore, this move can be considered almost sente. Before playing at B10 (b), all the other suggested moves may not be double sente.
- tapir: Two obvious candidates a and b.
- Andy: E18 c is a big sente point (if we had territory in the corner it would be double sente so maybe this is one-and-a-half sente. I don't like a because it encourages black to fix his aji around B14.
- emeraldemon: d is very big and I'm pretty sure sente.
- Chew: Just to present options, how about 'e' at B11. It threatens followup at B14, which would be nice.
- emeraldemon: Just a general thought: the black group in the top left seems small enough that we may force it to make life in gote. If there's a sequence that does this, it would almost certainly be the biggest play.
- tapir: This is the idea behind a. If black wants to take away what we gained in the corner with a move like c, we have good plays against the weak black group. However we have to take care, as black can probably play x in sente, which makes the placement at the marked point considerably weaker - if not a is in place.
- Chew: To this end, it seems like E14 might be sente. If they tenuki after blocking, we can later either take a big side or the corner in its entirety. However, I think there's bigger stuff out there right now.
Herman chooses C17 (a): This move is not only large endgame, but also forces black to concern themselves with their group on the left. N4 (b) is sente, and there is aji here, but I first want to play the upper left, as that area looks more important to me. E18 is large, but I am afraid that black would ignore the top to play in the corner, and I don't believe we can kill the top. Q1 (d) is large endgame, but there are still more urgent areas at the moment. This move, and also D1 on the other side, are double sente endgame moves, so they should be played early, but currently their gain is not large enough, the upper left corner is bigger. B11 (e) is an interesting move, aiming at the placement, but black can defend with x and a, so it is better to take a ourselves and kjee the aji going.
- Fwiffo: We've pretty much reached the limits of the hassling we can do, and our big white dragon seems pretty happy now, so now it's time to go for big endgame, and I think a (C9) is the biggest.
- tapir: Force black to live by cutting at N13 (b), thereby setting up big (gote) endgame play at N17 z (capturing (the N18 stone)). However the big moves all around may be bigger now.
- emeraldemon: R11 c is quite a few points on the side and threatens to atari the stone just played.
- Andy: G1 d. Unleash the power of the monkey.
- Chew: M4 (e) Threatens the bottom, seems interesting.
unkx80 chooses C9 (a). This is the biggest area on the board. G1 (d) is probably the next largest. N13 (b) loses points locally on the right side, but I fear that R11 (c) may not be sente. M4 (e) is interesting in its own right, but I shall not comment on it now.
Moves 101 to 110
- tapir: cut at N13 a, had we exchanged N17 for M18 earlier this cut would be sente and black has to give up one of both groups.
- unkx80: I should have exchanged N17 for M18 before returning to defend at R18. I realized my mistake some time after I made that move, but I had originally intended to save this comment for the review.
- Fwiffo: I'd like to take a big tenuki like C9 soon, but I feel uneasy about our big dragon. K11 (b) gives us more eyespace while reducing the eyespace of the black group. I believe it's sente; black will connect with a (black's group might die if we get to take a and b). If we instead take a first, that will pretty much force black to take b or similar which hurts our group.
- emeraldemon: I'm also worried about our group, in particular the aji at G12, looks like it threatens two cuts. Therefore I suggest G11 (c).
- Andy: d (C9). Big dragons never die.
- Chew: e (F11) to do the same thing as c, but faster and less solidly.
- tapir: Imo b is doing the same thing as c and e as well, while putting more pressure on white.
Herman chooses K11 (b): It was a hard choice between N13 (a) and this move. Both are sente against the center group and improve our shape, but I like this move better because it creates more eyeshape than N13, and also defends against any potential cutting point that black might create with G12. G11 (c) and F11 (e) are too defensive, they do not really make territory, so they only defend against G12. As tapir pointed out, k11 also defends against that, but is a dual purpose move. C9 (d) is a very big move indeed, but I would like to torture the center group some more before switching to big endgame :-)
- jasavol1: Q6 (a) to connect.
- tapir: Living or connecting are basically miai. So I propose K11 b to reduce the black eyespace further and make eyeshape for our other group. (Living at L8 then threatens to capture two stones as well.)
- Fwiffo: R9 (c) ruins any possibility of black getting eye-shape along the edge and takes profit by closing up our open skirt.
- Andy: Q9 (d) feels like an overplay, but looks ok at first glance and is more aggressive than (c) since it continues to threaten to cut off black's tail and make black live in gote. Actually, I think jasovoll's Q6 suggestion is good. After we connect black has to live in gote and we can make big sente plays elsewhere. (b) is attractive since it makes the big white dragon alive (I still have nagging worries about the dragon), but living and connecting aren't really miai, since connecting is better.
- Chew: Just as a different option, we can consider M4 (e), which would threaten to hane and cut off the stones to the right on the bottom. If we kill the bottom right, we get almost as much as we'd get in the middle, and if not, it would be a reduction that holds some sente value. Of the earlier local options, I like c in particular, though.
- sh: If tenuki is an option, I would suggest (f) at C9
unkx80 chooses Q6 (a). Actually I never managed to consider all these suggestions in detail, but it seems that all of them are playable, including the tenuki at C9 (f). The purpose of connecting is to force Black to live in gote, and then we can play elsewhere. As a result of connecting, we don't need to worry about the life-and-death of the middle White group, and a Black move at L8 doesn't threaten anything at all. Among the suggestions, R9 (c) seem a bit soft, while Q9 (d) results in a two-stone chain with only three liberties, therefore I would like to keep these moves in reserve (meaning, to be played at a later opportunity).
- emeraldemon: There are two options to connect, I may as well suggest one of them Q7 (a).
- Chew: You say 'two options'. I hear 'miai'. Let's start taking some of the little tenukis we've been wanting, like g1 (b). Not at all sure if that's bigger than any of the other obvious points here, but now's our chance.
- Fwiffo: I don't think the points are miai for us to connect; I think either works to either cut or connect us. But we don't have to play them immediately. We can play the eye-ruining move at c (Q10) in sente, because it threatens to cut.
- sh: But connecting at a (or one point below a) seems to be miai with making life at l8, I would suggest to tenuki at C9 (d)
- jasavol1: Let's give Q6 (e) a try.
Herman chooses Q10 (c): I agree completely with Fwiffo's reasoning here. The points Q6 and Q7 (a and e) both connect, but they are not miai. Q10 is a fine move, because it threatens to make connecting unneccessary by cutting off part of Black's group. In the process, it spoils Black's eyeshape, and black will have to fight to survive in the center. The moves at G1 and C9 are both big moves, but urgent moves come first. If we can kill black in the center, the game is over, if we can make them live in gote, we will have sente into the endgame, and the game looks fine for us.
- Fwiffo: Connecting at a (O7) is forced, IMHO.
- emeraldemon: We could extend to b. After the capture (at a) we cut one space below, and Black will probably fill in to avoid the ko. Then we have sente to attack, or live.
Herman chooses O7 (a): I agree that this is forced, if we extend and allow this stone to be captured, our center group gets cut of and becomes weak again, the benefit of sente is not enough to compensate.
- Fwiffo: I can't imagine black letting us capture , so they must connect at z (now B101). I will therefore pre-emptively offer a (P7) which protects the cut and effectively connects to the right by virtue of cutting off and basically killing the R7 stone. Black will have the atari at P8, but they're still left with all kinds of other problems for their increasingly heavy central group.
- Andy: The shape of a looks too good and it's so much better to connect than to have to make life.
- tapir: b makes life, but a is better imho. Still a proposal.
Herman chooses P7 (a): Both suggestions agree on this move, and so do I. P7 guarantees that we can connect our center group to the right, and connecting is always preferable over living locally, hence this move is better than L8 (b). Strategically, stabilizing our group is extremely important. When we are connected, black will have to make sure they live in the center, which gives us sente to play first toward the endgame.
unkx80: So we see that one disadvantage of the R7 - S6 exchange shows up here.
Moves 91 to 100
- Chew: N7 (a) is the obvious, to avoid being split
- emeraldemon: P9 (b) is dangerously light, but threatens an atari which would completely surround the black stones. I think in a capturing race we are in the better position, and could take the whole group. Of course it's also risky.
- Andy: L8 (c). Trade you for ? There is a problem with (a) 
- Fwiffo: I think we're fine (I've made a continuation of your sequence below).
- tapir: I disagree. If white is letting us capture then we should only thank them. There is no need to make eyes timidly then (as in fwiffos diagram) taking the whole right side would be the better alternative :)
- Fwiffo: Well, my point was just to illustrate that if they let us take , we could make life if that's what it came down to. It goes without saying (or does it?) that having to make life locally isn't the best.
- sh: On hane extend: p8 (d). This is a commitment to capture all the black stones in the center.
unkx80 chooses N7 (a). This move is consistent with , shapes up the White group and prepares to escape. I think it is the only move here. I also don't think Black intends to counter-atari in response to this move, for it makes somewhat inconsistent - if Black intends to seal White in, then should be played at P8 instead.
Both P9 (b) and L8 (c) will allow Black to play at O7, connecting the Black group while splitting White up. P8 (d) will also Black to cut with N7, and White will have to make life by bumping around.
- Tapir: I like to ask Black whether they are confident in the center fight. Either they leave us a capture of later (with x) or there will be a cutting point when they answer at y. (+ I am confident that there is a mistake in the lines which are presented on the Black discussion page.)
- Fwiffo: I don't know what the best move is for defending our middle group, but I think b (O8) is as good as any.
- Andy: I don't know either. I worry that c (N5) is aji keshi, but I'll propose it anyway.
- jasavol1: Q7 (d).
- sh: Fight. N9 (e)
Herman chooses O8 (b): This is a dual purpose move. It strengthens our weak group in the center, and attacks blacks' weak group in the center as well. N17 (a) was an option for , but right now it is just endgame, and it is too early to choose this move over other options like the clamp (y), the hane on the first line, or pushing in from above. N5 (c) doesn't put enough pressure on black, black can ignore it and play first in the center. We will then run the risk of losing our group, and any damage we do to the lower side will be compensated by damage against the right side that black can inflict. Q7 (d) will be ignored in favor of the center, and claiming the whole right side will not be enough compensation to offset the loss of our center group. N9 (e) just forces black to make shape, we should keep our options here open, maybe later N9 will be a good move (for example, if we get O8 and P9, N9 will be atari).
- Fwiffo: We need to play a (R18) or this whole sequence is undone -- unless we have a bigger sente elsewhere. If we thought that though, we wouldn't have played out this sequence in the first place.
- Andy: That was my thinking in suggesting R18 for . Maybe we can revisit this after the game?
- Fwiffo: We had to eventually play R18 either way, but this way nibbles away a bit more and gives us possibly that cut later (or black has to spend a move to protect it).
unkx80 chooses R18 (a). is played with great timing, so must protect before cutting. Without , white can just cut and capture one black stone, without the need to play the defensive move at R18.
I agree with Fwiffo here: whether we play hane-connect or not, we still need to come back to defend at R18 anyway. The hane-connect just gets us a little bit more.
Andy: What if black tenukis the hane-connect? BQM500
unkx80: Are you referring to the timing of or tenuki after ? For the former, I actually don't expect much, but it is better for black to play earlier than later. I'll make diagrams later. For the latter, regardless of whether white plays the hane-connect, I expect black to tenuki anyway.
- tapir: Oh my god, we can take the corner in sente! a (P18)
- Fwiffo: Connecting seems to be the only move. Getting sente from this sequence is beautiful, delicious candy.
unkx80 chooses P18 (a). Sente or not, I don't know. In any case, I see no point waiting for this move. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to protest. =)
- sh: Defend the corner at a (O18)
- Andy: Capture firmly at b (R18)
- emeraldemon: a. keeping the corner is vital, and this takes it best.
- jasavol1: Tenuki. Q7 (c).
unkx80 chooses O18 (a). The hane-connect of O18 works and I agree it's the best. Tenuki is not an option now.
White runs out of eyeshape.
Fwiffo: Connecting with seems to make things OK. Black can't let us capture , or even if they do, they definitely can't let us capture . So we have time to make life and/or escape (e.g. starting with ).
Tapir: White can capture with at a or play at b to threaten the same (black can't really fight here) and close the side with c next or proceed to take the center stones in a big way. However, I am sure black will connect against .
Moves 81 to 90
- Fwiffo: We threatened to cut at a (Q17) for big corner profit, so it seems like the natrual follow-up.
- Andy: - is a game-ending mistake if is allowed to get eaten so a looks like the only move.
- tapir: At least we can look at b as well for a better commentary of the captain. (Cutting at a is a gote. Cutting after exchanging with O17 b first, isn't. )
- Fwiffo: *bump* Either some soldiers need to add some more suggestions or a captain needs to pick from one of these two.
unkx80 chooses Q17 (a). When I said that I don't anticipate to kill the black group but we will enter the upper side in sente, I assumed that black will connect at Q17. Since this didn't happen, I'm happy to take the corner in gote. I didn't attempt to gain more at O17 (b) because I have no confidence of killing the black group if black connects at Q17.
- sh: What about a at P8? This keeps the (now) four black stones separated from the edge.
- Fwiffo: I still think b (P17) is nice; I think black will have a hard time keeping both the wall and the center stones alive. If he doesn't respond and instead tries to connect the two groups, we can cut and take a lot of corner territory.
- antone? c (O12) forces black to decide between the center stones or the corner group.
- tapir: c is unnecessary. Black is already divided. d tries the same as a Black can connect in gote, but that's all. Though leaving a lot of forcing moves...
unkx80 chooses P17 (b). I don't anticipate killing the black group, but I think we should be able to enter the upper side in sente. Then we can decide what to do next.
- jasavol1: Let's try it again: N12 (a).
- tapir: Take it all. b (O17) aiming at z (Q18). (Black will not have time to connect his center stones, because then the whole dragon will be under attack. Idea is to make a living group here and letting connect Black in gote, then attack the center. If Black defends the White attack on the center will be kind of splitting attack and I doubt Black will be able to live with both groups.)
- Fwiffo: I was thinking the same lines, but the point I had imagined was c (P17).
- emeraldemon: P13 d threatens to cut, also builds for an attack on the right side (the stone can still be cut off).
- Chew: While I really like the options I'm seeing here, I'll suggest another for the sake of choices. I'll recommend C11 'e' as a prelude to attack the top left, as well as a start to claiming the rest of the left side.
- Andy: f P8. miai for the center and the right side using the solidity of
- Fwiffo: Embarrassment of riches for white here. So many attractive options I'd be lost to choose in a game.
- sh: Another option that we had already considered in the beginning of the game was g at F2
- antone? M3 (h) looks nice too ? Edit: nah, it's horrible
unkx80 chooses P13 (d). The hot areas on the board are on the center right side, upper right side, and left side. Note that the first two areas are somewhat inter-linked. Therefore I chose P13 (d) to separate the center black stones from the upper right black stones, and consider the upper right side and the right side as sort of miai. I chose this move over N12 (a) to stress on the right side as well as to reduce black's liberties by one.
O17 (b) and P17 (c) are both pretty decent suggestions. However, O17 (b) ends up being sort of a wasted move if White ends up cutting up the 3-3 stone, and P17 (c) will cause black to connect which removes aji, both of which is a pity.
Regarding P8 (f), it will only induce black to connect. Actually, while the and exchange takes sente profit, it also strengthens the white stone at R6, enabling a stronger local move. F2 (g) is still small at this stage of the game, and M3 (h) will only work without the black stone at Q2, which is why the block at is a large move.
- jasavol1: C15 (a) looks good to me for separating the new stone from the left side.
- Chew: N12 (b) to cut off the middle and claim it.
- Fwiffo: D16 (c) Even an idiot connects at a peep, so I'm certainly qualified to suggest it. :-)
- Andy: I don't know. C14 (d).
- tapir: c without hesitation.
- Herman chooses D16 (c): This is solid. If black plays tenuki, white may get a large corner here with less aji than if the probe hadn't been played, but black also still has to think about their center group. C15 (a) makes it too easy to play tenuki, because it leaves more aji in the local position, and black may make some exchange here to get sente. N12 (b) is an obvious contender, but after black's last move, it is too easy for black to simply sacrifice some stones in the center in exchange for the upper left corner. C14 (d) leaves even more aji than C15, and will almost certainly be ignored.
- Andy: a S7
- Fwiffo: Isn't b (S6) standard here? Playing solid should limit black's forcing moves here.
Herman chooses S6 (b): the two suggested moves are pretty much the only reasonable responses here, and we do need to respond. S6 is better, because S7 is pushing from behind, see diagram:
Herman: After - , white isn't safe yet, because black has the placement at a. White could push again with - to keep sente, but then white has pushed from behind twice on the second line, and a move at b will still be sente for black. Thus it is better to simply defend with S6 immediately, which still leaves weaknesses in black's center formation.
Moves 71 to 80
- Chew: Keep going to H11 (a)
- Fwiffo: I have concerns now about the peep at G12...
- sh: What about G11 (b) then?
- Fwiffo: Well, I don't think that's quite playable yet, I'm just concerned. But I'm dealing staring at the board through a nyQuil haze, so take my comments with a larger than usual cobble of salt. I guess I agree with H11 (a).
Herman chooses H11 (a): This is good shape, and good sense. If we allow black to push us around here, all the value of the cut will be instantly lost, we cannot allow black to resolve the center fight in sente. G11 (b) is a little too thin, and lacks shape. Black can cut and push, and the cutting point at G13 will come back to haunt us.
- Chew: Extend to H10 (a). Try to connect with our stones to the north, and potentially cut off the three black stragglers in the middle.
unkx80 chooses H10 (a). I agree, and I see no need to wait for this obvious move.
- tapir: Split 'em! a (J10).
- Fwiffo: Cutting directly at b (H9) seems to have promise too.
- Chew: A few moves ago, emeraldemon suggested "(now modified to c) L9, makes a tiger mouth, threatens to cut off the two stones in the center and force them to run away." It seems to me it's still an option now
- philjun: Cutting at b (H9) seems right to me, but I'll suggest K9 (d) to provide options.
- Andy: Seems to me if we were going to push, which we did, then we have to follow up with the cut, otherwise we solidify black and reduce our own liberties for no reason.
unkx80 chooses H9 (b). Not much to say, since all the set up for the cut has been done. All other options will only induce Black to connect the cutting point. With respect to L9 (c), it would be better played before .
- tapir: Probe at H5 a.
- Gurujeet: Cut at H9 (b)
unkx80 chooses H5 (a). Suggestions seem a bit slow, so I shall make my move to get the game going. The choice to atari before cutting is a matter of timing. If we cut first, there is always this chance that we may not be able to come back to atari, therefore I think it is better to atari now.
- tapir: Atari, atari! H5 a. (I want to play out the aji right now and then split black top and center.)
- Andy F2 b. I'd prefer not to keshi the aji of a yet.
- philjun: J8 (c). Push and cut. I'm here to fight after all.
unkx80 chooses J8 (c). I do want to play both H5 (a) and J8 (c) to cut Black off.
Moves 61 to 70
- emeraldemon: So we made gain in sente, I'll suggest L9 a again, for the same reasons.
- tapir: Prepare the attack on the top right or center or both. N9 b.
- Andy: F2 c. We needed the extra liberty from C7 to enable this kind of counterattack.
- sh: Let's complete the shape at d (J6)
unkx80 chooses J6 (d). This is a move I have been waiting to play for the past few moves. Basically it shapes up, creates a cutting point or two, and best of all, it is sente. However, even though I chose J6 (d), I do not mean that the other suggestions are bad, just that if we do not play at J6 now, we might not get a chance to play it later.
- philjun: Perhaps we could defend some territory at Q9(a), at the same time threatening to connect out to our weak group.
- Andy: I think we need to push from behind one more time at C7(b).
- tapir: I just feel like playing N9 c. We need some strength to switch to attack mode later. The other moves strike me as unrelated to the fight in the center. (That is, they are "only" big.)
- emeraldemon: d L9, makes a tiger mouth, threatens to cut off the two stones in the center and force them to run away.
- Antone: push at P12 (e) ?
unkx80 chooses C7 (b). I find it a tough call to decide between C7 (b) and N9 (c) / L9 (d). However, as chose to play at a big point rather than attacking, I suppose it would be fine to play at another big point for as well, since the White group won't die immediately. As for the other two points, I am not sure what purpose they serve. In particular, Q9 (a) cannot really meet its stated objective of getting territory on the right side.
- Andy: a (M8). If black N8 we can L9. If black L8 we can N8. I don't think black can stop us connecting on either the right or the top.
- Chew: b (N8) has less of a miai quality, but I think it spreads out more, covers more ground, and isn't really cuttable.
unkx80 chooses M8 (a). Christmas is around the corner, so I think more suggestions are not forthcoming. Anyway both suggestions have their pros and cons, and both seem to be playable. I choose M8 (a) mainly on the emphasis on making eyes.
Actually, M8 is the point I have been wanting to play for both and .
- antone: attach at K9 a, threatening to make another table at L9 and then connecting upwards
- sh: Before completing the shape at J6 I would suggest to play on N6 (b) to make more space for a second eye. N6 leaves options to either seek connection to the right or bottom right or to make enough space for two eyes.
- philjun: Complete the shape at J6 (c).
- tapir: Thank god I don't have to read the variations :) d (H8)
- Andy: e (J8) just to make a fifth suggestion so the captains feel free to make a play without waiting (although actually I like b).
- jasavol1: N7 (f) for the same reasons than b, but I think it looks more beautiful one row upwards.
unkx80 chooses N6 (b). I have to admit that I didn't really see coming, but I don't think this represents a bad situation for us either. Of all the suggestions, I think N6 (b), J6 (c), J8 (e), and N7 (f) are all playable, the difficult thing is to choose which one to play. I chose N6 (b) mainly for eye potential as well as making escaping and entering Black's bottom miai. I suppose K9 (a) may possibly be playable as well, but this move gives Black the option to play K8 which is rather unnecessary. H8 (d) will invite J8, separating White into two groups that have to be managed separately.
- Andy: a (L5) seems an obvious candidate.
- Antone b(J6) is another option
unkx80 chooses L5 (a). Make table shape and reduce the bottom at the same time. J6 (b) will be responded by the atari at L5, which spoils the eye shape of the White group.
Moves 51 to 60
- Chew: Let's dig in deeper. If we peek with K4 (a), we have options of making eyes along the south wall, linking up to a monkey jump, potentially killing J5, or sacrificing a later to help us get out. Not sure which, if any, we'll be able to pull off, but it seems like a step worth taking.
- emeraldemon: H9 (b). Being in so deep makes me nervous. I'd like to keep an exit open. If black kills these two stones, we lose the game I think.
- Andy: c (N7). and aren't connected to any friendly forces either. Separate black from the strength on the bottom.
- tapir: Peep at F6 d.
- sh: K4 seems a bit too deep, so I'd try (e) at K5. If then black plays hane, white can make a table shape, and besides the way out to the left is still open.
- jasavol1: L5 (f). I don't really know what to say about it but that it looks nice. And if the former reasoning about table shape in suggestion e is correct, then it should apply to this move also, shouldn't it?
- antone G8 (g) now may be useful to keep black's group separated from the left.
unkx80 chooses K5 (e). I believe there are multiple options of play here, and there could be some that we (including myself) could have missed. Anyway, I intuitively choose K5 (e) mainly for the table shape as stated, which means eyes. Among the choices, I prefer K4 (a) and L5 (f) next, but K4 (a) may be too deep in while L5 (f) may invite the tower peep and doesn't seem to make eyes as well as K5 (e). In my opinion, N7 (c) cannot escape and therefore it cannot achieve the stated objective of separating the Black groups. As for the other moves, I am not too sure of their workability - I did not read all of them out.
- sh: Reply the capping play with a knight's move. My suggestion: G8 (a)
- philjun: What about the one-space jump to L7 (b), looking to attach at K9 (x) and split black's position?
unkx80 chooses L7 (b). Basically I agree with philjun, and here we will be happy just to make two eyes for this group. Playing at G8 (a) seems to be the wrong direction to me as we will be running into the and stones.
- jasavol1: C8 (a). Jumping, jumping.
- Andy: c11 (b). Killing, killing.
- FireclawDrake: D10 (c) is more of a multipurpose move I think. Blocks black from extending, while also threating to reduce the moyo at the bottom and attacking .
- Chew: We have sente? Let's do some damage! I'm not the best at deciding on how far to reduce, but I suggest I7 (d). Let's go as far in as we can while still being able to get out. If we survive from there and manage half of the monkey jumps we have available, we will have cut black down significantly.
- Fwiffo: I like the attack at C11, but maybe a high, enclosing move (D11 - e) should also be considered? If we attack we're likely to end in sente and get more power for doing a reduction like d.
- Antone I like D10, but I'll add the usual useless suggestion at K10 (f), attacks the M11 stone, gives a foothold for further reduction, acts as a ladder breaker for the D5 cut. Drawback: maybe too close to our thickness ? But then again if we want to use the thickness we've got to provoke a fight
unkx80 chooses I7 (d). Having invested so many stones in building that downward facing wall, I think it is time to enter Black's framework. Actually I'd prefer a move that is further away from and , but that move doesn't seem to be forthcoming, and I think I'd better make a move lest others complain that the White captains have gone AWOL again.
- C8 (a) by itself is not playable. Black can push in at C7 and cut (reading exercise).
- C11 (b), D10 (c), or D11 (e) only induces Black to enter the corner. The stone is very light.
- K10 (f) as a move has no value, and Black is likely to respond with K8. The lone Black stone at M11 is disposable, and White does not enter the Black framework deep enough.
- jasavol1: D12 (a). Attack and build something towards right in the meantime.
- philjun: I don't think we should play too close to our newly build thickness. I'll suggest the pincer at C10 (b). Black will most likely go into the corner next, but I still think we can look forward to attacking.
- tapir: I make two suggestionn after passing several times :) C6 (c) is an obvious proposal, O17 (d) either isolates the black corner group or activates q18.
- Andy: Kogo's suggests push and cut at e (D5) here, but I think starting this fight is unnecessary since black is open on both sides on the bottom. I also like c, firming up the white corner and keeping the pressure on . Black almost has to respond since otherwise the push and cut becomes severe. I also don't like the look of what happens if we tenuki and let black take c for himself.
unkx80 chooses C6 (c). Given , the lower left is urgent: allowing Black to play at C6 (c) affects the life and death of the corner and therefore seals White in. With the presence of the J5 stone, cutting at D5 (e) feels somewhat unreasonable and unnecessary.
- Andy: How about a (E14)? This removes the aji at G13 and the keima cap is good shape against . We can take either the corner or the side depending on black's preference.
- emeraldemon: b (C11) gives black nowhere to run to.
- philjun: E14 indeed seems like the honte move. After this, we can attack anywhere without any regrets. However, just to provide some options I'll suggest D12(c).
- Fwiffo: I don't see the percentage in letting black cut. E14 eliminates two possible cuts and joins two potentially attackable groups into one big safe one. It also leaves the black stone all alone under our looming (sorta) wall cut off from his strong stones. They'll have room to slide/extend to get a base, but we'll profit too.
- FireclawDrake: Just for variety, how about D13 (d)? I think this protects the cut, and also is more severe against black's lone stone.
- jasavol1: D7 (e). I would also like to suggest E13, but I have no suggestions left.
- gaius: C15 (f) feels solid to me. Makes our corner almost living, but also (unlike E14) takes away black's base. I'm not so worried about our center group as it has reasonable shape and can run anywhere, so as long as the corner lives the cut is not a big concern. Also, C15 is sente, so that we can shift to ripping apart black's upper side next - his top right group feels like a nice target for attack ;).
- Antone?: M16 (g) for mutual damage ? Let's see who has more sente
Herman chooses E14 (a): This is solid. We connect while attacking black and with good shape. I'll discuss more later.
unkx80: I'll give a commentary for all moves except E11 (b). Obviously we need to answer , because a Black cut at E14 (a) is quite severe, so D7 (e) and M16 (g) are both out. C15 (f) does not protect the cut at E14 (a). D12 (c) and D13 (d) only serve to strengthen the stone in an attempt to connect. If we want to connect, the only move is E14 (a), which is solid and with good shape as mentioned.
In other words, there are only two moves that I consider: E14 (a) and E11 (b). But E11 (b) feels too close to me and may be an overplay.
7 suggestions in 4 days. I think it's time to make a move.
In general, playing a little faster will be nice.
Five days now. Are both captains AWOL?
unkx80: Herman, do you want to make a move? I'm currently sick and can't properly read out what happens after Black plays at a. Otherwise, I may just make a move at a.
Here's a point and click game to enjoy.
Herman: Sorry, I was very busy! I've chosen a, I will write some commentary later today!
Moves 41 to 50
- philjun: Connecting at J13 (a) seems safe and solid.
- Fwiffo: Phew, I don't think that ko would have been good for us. I agree that J13 seems to be the best way to connect, but we still need a plan for the G13 cut.
- Andy: K14 (b) protects against the cut at a, and makes shape for our reducing stones.
- jasavol1: K13 (c) also protects against the cuts, doesn't it?
Herman chooses J13 (a): We need to protect a cutting point, and the best cutting point to protect is J13. This move does the most to help against the cut at G13, because it does not allow any atari against the H13 stone, so is the best of the presented options.
About the ko: The ko is extremely simple. We cannot afford to lose it, but we can never really win it, because we have no ko threats. That means that the only way to win it is to ignore a black threat. That was what we would have done. If black cuts, we take the ko, ignore whatever threat black plays and capture . Black can then follow up on their ko threat (which would cost us a corner), and we can push through (J17) into blacks area at the top, cutting off all black's stones in the upper right. That would have been an acceptable result. Black gets a huge corner (by destroying one of ours), we get a huge corner as well, and we are then extremely strong in the center.
- philjun: If we want to keep some of our original reducing stones, another play is needed in this area. As our group around H13 i still pretty thin, I propose playing at J13 (a). This both strengthens our group at J15 and strengthens the connection to our reducing stones
- jasavol1: I thought of connecting at K14 (b). Compared to a, it strengthens less our group in the left but gives some eyespace and nice shape to our group in the right while connecting. At least I hope it does connect the groups together...
- Fwiffo: We are thin like tissue paper. Getting connected leads to complicated variations which are beyond me. So I'll just throw out another move (c at K13) so that our fearless leader has more choices.
- tapir: Why not J14 d?
unkx80 chooses J14 (d). My guess is that dan-level intuition would directly point to J14 (d), and I trust my intuition. The other moves are all slack. In particular, K13 (c) would be answered by J13, leaving so many cutting points and making the position almost undefendable.
- Andy: You just beat me to it, but I was wondering if white dares tenuki here to play D6? Comments?
- unkx80: Not time to tenuki yet; Black will play at J13 if White plays tenuki.
- Herman: In general, we can say that J13 is a key move that black would like to get. White must prevent it, and the only two moves that are really viable for that are J13 (taking it ourselves) or J14 (where black J14 is still possible, but starts a ko that could cut it off and leave it useless). K14 is semi-viable, but is slack. If play goes K14-J13-J14, then if we change the order to J14-J13-K14, we get the same position. But now we can see it is slack, because in the second sequence, white shouldn't defend at K14, but should capture the ko. If black then makes a ko-threat and recaptures, we could still defend at K14 (if we don't have ko threats or don't want to fight the ko), but black will have used up a ko threat, a clear gain over defending directly.
- Chew: J14 (a) - Force the issue. This gives us a little eyespace, a bit better shape, and a shot at connecting west.
- tapir: b (H13) black will pull out after a (J14).
- Fwiffo: I think I prefer b, but connecting at c (J15) seems possible. It threatens to capture even if it's a bit heavy. It also renews the subtle threat to cut off and attack the black wall to the right.
- jasavol1: I'll vote for b also.
- Andy: also for b.
- philjun: I'm for b.
- emeraldemon: d, a solid wall begins to form.
- sh: Just for the sake of offering alternatives: e at D10 to claim the left side
Herman chooses H13 (b): Its either this, or defending at J15 (c). The other moves would allow black to destory our position. This move focuses on the center and left side, defending at J15 would threaten to break in to the top. I do not think however, that that threat is severe enough, or we can get enough compensation for what black gets in return in the center.
- jasavol1: Oh yes, to the left! F14 (a).
- Andy: Connect. H14 (b).
- Fwiffo: Getting cut is bad, mm-kay. H14 (b).
- FireclawDrake: How's J14 (c) to protect the cut and create some eyeshape?
- philjun: F14 (a) seems like the best choice, but to provide some options I'll suggest E13 (d).
- Antone: If I was black and white played 'a' I would play something around j13, allowing white to connect to the side while forming a huge moyo towards the bottom. So I propose something like J12 to protect whatever eyespace we have here, this hopefully allows us to not lose the group immediately if black cuts us off from the left.
Herman chooses F14 (a): THe main choice here is betwwen F14 (a) and H14(B), in my opinion. J14 (c) also defends the cut, but in bas shape. Black can peep and we'll have to connect with an empty triangle. The other moves, E13 (d) and J12 (e) are too loose in this position. J12 defends the cut only halfheartedly, while E13 doesn't put enough pressure on black. F14 on the other hand does put pressure on black, which is why I chose it over H14. Alsthough black can cut and capture some stones, that is relatively small, and closing off the left side with F14 is sufficient compensation.
- Antone: I suppose there's not much choice here. H14 'a'
- Andy: a works for me.
- philjun: It's hard to find any other move than H14 (a). The lighter move at H13 (b) perhaps?
- emeraldemon: G14 (c) .
- tapir: G16 Just to read more explanation :) (d)
- FireclawDrake: I don't think we can tenuki here but I don't have any other ideas, and When in doubt, tenuki... sooo I'll suggest a rather bold move of O12. Same reasons as N12 but I think this move is slightly better.
- jasavol1: What about attacking at J16 (f)?
Herman chooses G14 (c): I like this move. This is a sort of double hane, and it is wuite hard for black to get anything much here by cutting at H14 (a) or atari J15. White is quite willing to lose some stones here in an exchange. H14 is the other main option, and is probably at least as good as this move. Slower, but more solid. Jumping to H13 is also a move aimed at sacrificing some stones, but it does not put as much pressure on black as G14 does, so I prefer G14. G16 (d) is another interesting move, but I think it is too easy for black to then cut in the center and sacrifice some of their edge. J16 (f) would probably be responded to with H14, and then we would get heavy. Not a good scenario on this board with all the black influence. Playing elsewhere, like O12, is really not an option at this point. Black would be happy to play H14 and then devastate our left side.
Moves 31 to 40
- Antone: Looks like the only time I actually suggest something useful I chicken out of it :) Oh well. For this move I think we can't let black surround our group on all sides, so we should play something on the left. Unfortunately none of the points to the left are very good except maybe J13 ('a', if black jumps to H14 we extend to J14 and make excellent shape, If black attaches on top at J14 then I think our stongest reply is L12 ?
- FireclawDrake: I think a kikashi at N12 (b) is our best answer. This threatens a plethora of things and must be answered or we will connect on the right. I expect Black to push with P12. It puts pressure on Black 39 and also creates eyeshape in the center, while aiming at further reducing at N16.
- philjun: K13 (c) looks like good shape.
- jasavol1: I'd also go for N12 (b).
- Andy: How about attaching to black's strong stone with d (H15)? I don't like b since black can play N11 and white can't connect to the right. I don't like a or c since black can play J11 or K11 respectively and the center becomes frightening.
Herman chooses H15 (d): I have bee wanting to play this move for some time, but it wasn' suggested so far. As andy points out, it is very acceptable to attach against a strong stone. This move has the advantage over the others of being a double purpose move. Not only is it helping aour group, but it is also creating aji and threatening to build a wall facing the left side. Moves like J13 (a) or K13 (c) make shape for out group, but do little else. N12 (b) is an interesting move, because it threatens to link up while splitting black. Unfortunately, it is also bad shape, and black is so stronmg on all sides, that splitting has no real effect. And beyond that, N12 definitely builds neither territory nor influence, so it'll just end op as a dame point.
- FireclawDrake: Black is trying to make us heavy with this move. I'm sure L15 (b) will be suggested by someone else, so I suggest the move to force black into a miai play at L13 (a). If they push through at L15 we can thrust at L14 and force black to choose a side. If they attack more forcibly at L14, then we can choose our own side to connect out to.
- tapir: c (K13) is shape imo. Please capture now, dear black. (As black i would have peeped from the outside.)
- -Pardon my newbishness, but doesn't a move at K13 invite the tower peep? -FireclawDrake
- Tapir: As I said, I want to invite Black to eat that stone in gote. White has made strength in sente, and black is awfully overconcentrated then. Imagine that the cut at Q17 is still open... this can only be good for white. Reducing blacks thickness advantage without giving much to him. I particularly don't like moves which emphasize ... it will only end with a heavy white group under attack, what for?
- Andy: Two (maybe bad) reasons to emphasize : 1) points into a potentially large black territory. If black gets a move around N16, the cut of Q17 doesn't work anymore. 2) The group is potentially attackable. This potential weakness of gives some interest. In comparison, the group is invulnerable, which means the potential to do something useful with is limited.
- tapir: Isn't a black move around N16 much more likely when white emphasizes ? All the cutting ways for black to get doesn't involve a stone at N16 thus cutting isn't very attractive for black anyway, but if we keep adding stones to it, it will be, and we are not out in safety at all. I would play the kosumi and similar moves only if I feel horribly behind. But we aren't getting sente and outside strength in all these exchanges is much more important imho. We will still be ahead in the territorial balance while evening out the strength part.
- Andy: Are you sure about the territorial balance? If black plays N16, how many points do you count for white and how many for black?
- jasavol1: Why not jump from the other stone, to M13 (d)?
- Antone: I prefer to jump a bit farther at M12 (e) trying to use the group on the right (the downside is that black might play x, then again we might WANT black to play x)
- Antone: Edit: I think I'm going to change my suggestion to M16 threatening to push again and split black's entire group if he cuts, considering the aji of the cut at Q17 I think black can't really allow that.
- Andy: Connecting against the peep is obvious, but heavy and not particularly effective as a reduction either, which was the point of in the first place. I suggest (f) N16. If black pushes through we can make some shape with (d).
- Antone: more noobish questions: wouldn't f be an example of the weak player's diagonal? Why is the kosumi at N16 better than a straight push at M16 ?
- Chew: I feel like at least one of our reducting stones will escape to safety. While I'd love to play many of the moves listed, perhaps we should take the opportunity to make the cut at Q17 (g) before the option is closed to us.
- Antone: question, would it not be inconsistent of black to not cut through on the next move anyway ?
- tapir: well, the sequence after the cut g ends in gote for white, so black can look forward to the cut than. the question isn't escaping imo, but establishing something strong or running with a weak group. as white has to care for its own weakness on the left, and has to play the sente reduction in the lower right soon... i feel like sente is very important right now.
- Antone: I see what you mean.
- emeraldemon: I'll go ahead and suggest (b). Yes, our group gets heavier, but also much stronger: we can make a long extension in the direction of a-e, and we have lots of liberties. If our group is strong enough, the attacks at f and g threaten to remove the whole base of the black group in the corner, and then we can both struggle for life together. I may be wrong, but (b) looks like honte to me.
- philjun: I'll go ahead and suggest the light skip to h (L12). I think white should not connect at b (L15) and in fact welcome black pushing through. It should be easy for white to make sabaki.
- Joaz Banbeck: Happy Thanksgiving to all of you, from all of us over on the black side.
Herman chooses M13 (d): I think white should move into the center. If we don't we run the rsik of being attacked on a large scale. This move aims at connecting up to the left side, but if black decides to push from behind there, we are not in any trouble. I prefer this jump over the other jump at K13 (c), because black's area on this side is bigger. If black pushes through and cuts, there is much less to gain for him on the left than on the right. Choosing the middle move L13 (a) would lead to bad shape. If black pushes through, and we block, then a shape spoiling move like J13 would put pressure on our entire group, and we would be heavy and without eyeshape. Jumping further out is a nice option, but I think the suggested move L12 (h) is the wrong shape, I would prefer to make a two point jump at either K12 or M12. Especially M12 was interesting, but the suggestion was sadly retracted :) The connection at L15 (b) is, as was immediately mentioned, too heavy. Black would attack us on a large scale with a move like L12 (h). Pushing in at M16 is sente, but it makes us heavy, while black gets better shape. Since there is still plenty of aji around the cut at Q17 (g), I would rather wait and see how thing develop. making the cut now is too early, as our center group would be severely attacked, but if black plays there first, we still have plenty of aji to play with once our center group gets more shape and strength. This is also the reason not to play N16 (f). N16 is a nice move to push into black territory in the endgame, but at the moment in is bad shape, and would make our center group heavier than it needs to be. PS: Thanks Joaz! Happy thanksgiving to you also :-)
- tapir: I propose C12 (a) - it looks somewhat passive but C13 looks strong otherwise. (White should start thinking about sente monkey jumps on the lower edge soon.)
- Chew: As an alternative, we can go for P2 (b) and start gouging out their bottom. I think in this case, it is about as good as a regular monkey-jump, perhaps a little better. If ignored, it gives us the option to one-space-jump west again.
- Andy: Now that is strong, we need something in the corner. I like a, but I'm also going to suggest c (D18) as a way to undermine the upper side and be a little more solid than a.
- jasavol1: Continue attacking at M16 (d).
- emeraldemon: I like d, but I think if we play e (H14) first, we threaten both d and F14, which would make some massive strength on the left by linking up.
- philjun: Wouldn't both d and e depend on ladders which do not work for white? Anyway, given black's thickness on the left, picking a fight here doesn't seem like the right thing to do. I'll suggest a further reduction with M15 (f), aiming at the attachment at L17 (x).
- FireclawDrake: I suggest a light move at 'g'. Flexible and helps everywhere.
Herman chooses M15 (f): White should tread carefully here. Black is strong all around, and will pick any fight they can. As philjun noted, both H14 (e) and M16 (d) are vulnerable to be cut and depend on ladders that don't work, so those moves are too aggresive. Generally, we can say that knight's moves are goo for offense, because they are slightly faster, but also slightly thinner. So they are fine moves with support, where cutting them ends badly, but not so fine when they are alone. One point jumps, on the other hand, are good for defense. They are pretty much impossible to cut, but are still light. I was tempted to play K12 (g), because it is a nice light way to skip out of black's influence, but in the end I found it a little too much of a single purpose move. M15 on the other hand is a double purpose move. It helps in running into the center, while also reducing black, and it has a very clear follow-up plan (invade deeper) available if black plays tenuki. C12 (a), P2 (b) and D18 (c) are moves that aim at increasing our territory, or reducing that of the opponent. I so not think we have time for that yet. If we do not support now, we should not have played it. Had black responded with M16 instead of H16 on move , we could have realistically played tenuki, because that would have been a purely defensive move. But at H16 is not just a defensive move, it also aims at splitting from or upper left corner, and is in an ideal position to do so. Thus supporting is urgent, and urgent moves come before big moves.
- philjun: The shoulderhit at L16 (a) looks tempting now.
- tapir: What about K15 (b), capping play?
- Fwiffo: Reducing black is a good idea, particularly considering that the extensions from black's wall are low and easily reduced, but both reducing moves I like have already been suggested. Since one extension from our shimari was taken away, why not take the other? Black is threatening C13, and given that black has all the influence, if that turns into a fight, it would not be to our favor. An extension like C12 (c) forestalls such a move and is pretty big in its own right. Given the amount of influence black has, the normal move of C10 seems too thin, and seems like it's trying too hard to finish the left side with one move, which isn't really possible.
- Fwiffo: OK, I'm convinced. I'm changing my suggestion to C12.
- Andy: d (Q17). I think black has somehow missed with . Black can't resist d since the stones would be floating and weak, so white takes an enormous corner. In conjunction with black's open skirt on the bottom, I don't think black can win this game, since black doesn't have an obviously perfect next play. I like both a and b. My one concern with these moves is that black's extension is a little too far and in the process of responding to either a or b black will be able to patch up the weakness at H17 in sente. I would prefer to leave this aji around for black to worry about. An extension on the right is also attractive, although it is a submissive response to . If white is going to play here, I think C12 is correct location, keeping the corner strong to enable a counterattack against -- I think the suggested C11 c reaches too far to try to take territory that white doesn't need.
- Fwiffo: I get your point about C11, and C12 does seem more reasonable in hindsight, but I'm going to put up a diagram below to show what I was thinking with C11.
- FireclawDrake: How about a nice high extension at Q9 (e)? Extends from both groups and looks pretty big to me.
- Antone: the cut at d is my favorite so far, but I'll add F15 (f) aiming at the weakness at H17, I think black cannot reply with the tower peep immediately, but needs to fix H17 first.
- Anonymous: I suggest checking to see if Herman is still alive.
unkx80 chooses K15 (b). It seems to me that a move on the upper side is urgent. Of the points on the upper side, K15 (b) and Q17 (d) are the most appealing to me. I selected K15 (b) to reduce Black's framework while keeping the option at Q17 (d) open. I think while L16 (a) is of the same reduction idea, it induces a Black response at K16 or L17, which strengthens the stone.
- tapir: Any comment about F15 (f)? I personally like it (focal point etc.) but I am far from sure about all possible lines and cuts.
- unkx80: Black may answer F15 (f) with either H16 or K15, making it more difficult for White to reduce Black's framework.
- tapir: But with the cut still open (as a kind of reduction) and D6 now, hasn't white a lot of potential herself.
Fwiffo: If white does invade at C13, we can kick to protect (I'd expect the light move of , but a is also standard), and still have time to finish the other half of the left side with something like or maybe get a bit of an attack going.
tapir: Black will never give white the chance to connect under after by playing . I would not consider , but answering at a (most obvious, even if it hurts when black lives inside) and at b (here connecting under will be a real option, as black can not really follow to the second line).
If black invaded the wider gap instead (C8 or somewhere in that vicinity), we can jump and be happy. starts an attack which can serve to reduce the center.
Black has fewer moves against the corner, but an attack on the invasion in the big gap (maybe not exactly , but that general vicinity) now seems less severe and a seems a lot smaller.
Andy: I don't think black can play this way. White can play b which both attacks and starts to trash black's moyo. Black is going to wind up without any points.
- Andy: I don't think omitting a (Q12) is an option.
- Fwiffo: I agree that a is pretty important. But just to give some variety, how about the cap at K15 (b)? We gotta start reducing at some point, and permitting a black move at a is not awesome, but it is survivable. The cap is also an indirect threat to make the cut at Q17. If we cut and they resist giving us the corner, the K15 stone is an aid for the resulting running white group.
- emeraldemon: Q11 gets ahead a little further. If b Q12 w R13 b R12, we can cut at P12 and start an exciting battle :)
- Antone: cutting into the corner directly at Q17 (d) counts as a reduction of black's moyo also, right ?
- tapir: I guess a is too urgent to be omitted. e expand White's framework while setting up possibilities in the black moyo. But Black will end up horribly thick everywhere rendering all possibilities useless. (But I prefer e over b at least.) If Black pushes once more after a white should tenuki.
Herman chooses Q12 (a): We cannot ignore this move, so we cannot play any of the tenuki suggestions. The fight started with Q11 is unreasonable, certainly given black's influence everywhere.
Moves 21 to 30
- philjun: Connecting at S16 (a) is joseki, but maybe now's the time to take sente and reduce black's potential? I would suggest K15 (b). This leaves the possibility of attaching at J17 and build up our own moyo.
- FireclawDrake: Yeah, I agree that playing S16 (a) is a bit slow right now, but that leaves us with so many options that I can't really decide on what so I'm gonna suggest S16 (a).
unkx80 chooses S16 (a). I don't see any move that is better than S16 (a), so I shall not wait for more moves. It helps White make a base, creates a cutting point for Black, and reduces the corner somewhat, so I think it is larger than it appears.
unkx80: If Black is allowed to capture at , then Black can look forward to attacking the right side with , aiming at a.
- Fwiffo: The next couple moves are forced; black must connect at Q15 () and we should follow-up at S13 (a).
- Andy: What Fwiffo said.
Herman chooses S13 (a): Agree that this is the only move.
- tapir: I surely will have a better tally soon by proposing a like atari. :)
- Andy: a (S15) is the OnlyMove. I'm surprised by the debate in the black camp over . On KGS wedging in with is all anyone there ever plays.
- unkx80: I'm a bit surprised too, but both and the 3-3 point are josekis. However, these two moves are basically the only moves, and I don't see much difference between the two.
- Antone: connect with R13 (b), and abandon the corner for greener pastures
- Tapir: We will connect there later (not exactly there but with the hanging connection, as black will answer).
unkx80 chooses S15 (a). This is the only move and is part of the joseki. Giving away the stone by playing at R13 (b) is unacceptable.
- FireclawDrake: Once again Black chooses influence over solid territory. Our choice here is basically to finish the joseki or allow our group to be attacked. I'm sure someone else will suggest the push, so I'm gonna lay down an alternative at L16 (a) again. Not sure if this is the best way to go about it but we need to get Black's influence in check or we are going to get pushed around alot mid-game.
- Fwiffo: R15 (b) is really the only continuation here. Letting black play there would be all kinds of intolerable.
- jasavol1: 3-3 invasion at R17 (c) is also possible, though would probably continue with block at Q17 and result in black having a thick wall facing left. Some more territory for white!
- Andy: S15 (d). Black's influence is making me uncomfortable. I don't think we can give black more. I think black responds in the corner and we can tenuki to shoulder hit at a, sacrificing stones on the right as necessary.
- philjun: I also prefer R15, but for completion's sake let me suggest R16 (e).
Herman chooses R16 (e): I don't think it is feasible to play elsewhere in this position, black will get too much, both in territory and in influence, if they are allowed to play R15, so it is too soon for L16 (a). I was tempted to play R17 (c) for even more territory, but afraid that black will get too much influence. If, in response to R17, black were to block on the left, at Q17, we would connect with R16, and the position would be very good for us. But black probably will not, and will play R16 instead. In exchange, white will get another corner, but will also be completely sealed in, and the white stones at R15 and Q14 will be mostly lost.
The choice of joseki here is hard. R15, R16 and S15 are all joseki moves. R16 and S15 usually give the same result, as black will often play R15, and white will play atari (and so get both R16 and S15). In comparison to R15, this joseki gives black a little less in the corner in exchange for more influence toward the left. With the low position of K17, I think that is acceptable for us. Black will need a move to finish his position, or run the risk of a reduction (shoulder hits, capping plays, or similar moves). And although black's position will be quite big if they defend, there is still a lot of endgame to be had in the corner later, and white will have sente.
ThorAvaTahr: I wonder whether this choice is correct. I agree completely with the line of reasoning above, except for the part where you say white will get sente. Although of course black's position after the joseki can be reduced, there is IMO not a satisfactory move for black to play. So even if black would like to answer, he lacks a good move. But he doesn't want that since the left side of the board has become much more important.
I would have chosen the simple move of R15, because that one will more likely end in sente than the joseki starting with R16. If black blocks and white makes a tight extension black faces a severe cut if he doesnt respond (which I think he still should ignore in order to develop something on the left side.) Of course that black will have a bigger corner, but white is way far ahead on points IMO.
Herman: Note that I said white would get sente only if black does defend against a reduction. White may or may not choose to do so. I either case, white gets something (ie: either sente, or the option to reduce).
That is not to say that R15 would be wrong. I think that move would have been fine as well, and I seriously considered playing it. It might also get sente, but black might also choose not to defend (as you mentioned).
So either way, black can choose to defend, or white will get something. In this position, I prefer a reduction over a cut, because cutting leads to fighting, which would allow black's influence to come into play. That's why I ultimately chose this move. It may have been wrong, we'll see how it turns out :-)
- Fwiffo: Boy, black is sure putting a lot of eggs in that influence basket. K17 is very well placed for black if we play the usual attach and extend joseki but the top would remain open to invasion or reduction. I'm going to suggest taking the corner with a (R17), cause that would be funny. Plus I hate that lame joseki.
- philjun: I think the hane at Q13 (b) is pretty much mandatory here. We might still enter the corner later. That being said, I feel was a bit of a mistake. I think we were ahead, and we must be careful not to let black catch up at this point.
- Chew: Since the two local options have been presented, here is something (worse) different. We can treat a and b as miai, and start reducing around L15 (c). Really, just trying to consider unusual responses.
- Andy: I also think b (Q13) is required here. Nevertheless, I throw d (R15) out as a possibility. a is a nice move and fits with the proverb that if any one player has all four corners, white wins the game, but I think a plays into black's game plan too well.
- sh: If a and b are miai as Chew suggest, I'd rather invade into black's bottom moyo at o2 (e)
- jasavol1: I'll go for Q13 (b) also.
- FireclawDrake: I think Q13 (b) is the only move.
Herman chooses Q13 (b): I agree that this is the only move, really. R17 (a) is playable sometimes, but in this position, the last thing I want is yet another corner :-)
White cannot play tenuki in response to , so c and e are out. R15 (d) results in bad shape and allows black to push white around (see diagram).
Herman: This is a standard way to punish . Black sacrifiaces two stones to get forcing moves everywhere, taking both influence and corner territory.
tapir: Is the assumption that is played as hane next so obvious? (It makes look bad sure, but aren't there any alternatives?)
Herman: Well, is the most obvious continuation. If is at , then black can play hane at the head of three on both sides, and double hane, whic hwill be painful. If at , Black plays immediately, and white will have to extend along the right edge (ag: to a) to stabilise the three heavy white stones, and it will still be slow and black still gets corner terriroty and influence. If at , black will wedge at , and either it will revert to this line, or white will get very low and still be pushed around. I'll write a more detailed treatment, with diagrams, at Noseki - 4-4, low approach, attach on top, peep
Andy: This line is given without comment in Kogo's which is why I included it. I think the move chosen instead is better since it retains most of what the peep offers while keeping better flexibility. The issue with this sequence is whether white wants this wall. In this game case, it looks possible to me, although not great. This would be more attractive if white were more solid in the bottom facing up the right side. I suppose if white really wanted to, white could take sente after making the wall and give up the two stones, although this loses more points than black's sacrifice of -.
Moves 11 to 20
- Chew: R14 (a) looks like the biggest thing to me. It's the widest unclaimed area, approaches weak stones, and works well with our bottom right corner.
- Andy: H17 (b) is a nice checking extension. If black responds, we can complete a formation on the left at C12. R14 is a good point, but I worry black will attach on top at Q14 and commit to building the center on a really massive scale. On an unrelated note, I think was the correct choice for black.
- philjun: I like H17 (b) as well, but I still think D6 (c) is a good move. I'm not too keen on R14, as the right side does not hold good prospects for development. I think that the top or the left would be bigger.
- Fwiffo: I like either of R14 or H17 but will suggest C10 (d). It's the other big extension from our shimari and develops the left side on a large scale. It doesn't convert the left side into territory, but it does make the prospect of black playing at C13 less uncomfortable.
- jasavol1: D10 (e). It gives us more influence than C10 (d).
- FireclawDrake: I think the shoulder hit at L16 (f) is also very playable, and works well with our high shimari to get some real influence.
- tapir: It is a shoulder hit on the wrong side, imho. Solidifying black without securing anything. -Point conceded, changed to the other side.
- Antone: I have no idea better than what has already been suggested, just to throw something in: how about R10 (g) to prevent a black double wing formation and wreck the right side for both (well, maybe we get a few points there, but it's hardly very big)
unkx80 chooses R14 (a). White's position is low overall and seems pretty uninteresting to me, so I'll just play what seems to be the biggest point. I don't really know Herman's intentions, so I just comment on the other moves as best as I can.
- As for H17 (b), why do you wait until Black has occupied the ideal extension point at before making a smaller and cramped extension?
- D6 (c), C10 (d), and D10 (e) are all moves that build up the left side. But these moves run the risk of building only an uninteresting one-sided territory. Between the C10 (d) and D10 (e), I prefer the higher move at D10 (e).
- L16 (f) is one really interesting move, but I'm not sure whether White gets sufficient compensation if Black chooses to take the territory.
- Among all the choices, R10 (g) is particularly uninteresting, because the right side is very low.
Herman: I have no particular long term plan, because I think that is not going to work in a wurengo setting. Instead, I try to evaluate the position again after each move, which is a very interesting and eductaional approach for me as well. I agree with this choice BTW :-)
Andy: This seems to be a teachable moment. I'm surprised at because it seems to induce this , which in connection with makes a perfect formation on the top. There might be this continuation, but there doesn't really appear to be a good location on the right for so ends by placing white in an awkward position. Is this continuation acceptable for white?
Herman: Ok, some comments: After , the formation is not perfect, because there is still a hole at a. Also, the exchange - in this diagram is a mistake. Before that exchange, there are two holes in black's top right formation, one at the aforementioned a, the other at 3-3 (). So after , white can treat these as miai.
This is a general principle that applies very often in the opening: If an opponent's formation has two holes in it (two reasonable invasions), then it is not urgent to play either, because you will (usually) get at least one. If, on the other hand, a formation only has one hole in it, then it is urgent to play there, otherwise the opponent may close the hole and get a perfect formation. In the position to the left, if were on line closer to the corner (at b), then the formation would only have one hole, and invading at 3-3 would be a good idea.
The exchange - is a mistake, because after that, there is only one hole in black's formation, so doing something there is urgent. But after , white is also heavy, and thus vulnerable to a pincer, and needs a move along the right. (normally c, but d is also played). So white must choose between defending his weak heavy group, and invading. Without , white is still light. If black plays at himself, then white can play an invasion without worrying too much about the stone.
Also, makes bad shape after , and should be at c or d. With like this, black can invade and white's heavy - stones might get in trouble.
Andy: I guess my puzzlement is from tewari from this classic joseki. In this formation, can also be at a, but on the whole board, neither nor a are good since is too low, and white's strength in the lower right is not enough for a. This makes suspect, as pointed out. But if the classic joseki line is not good for white, that also makes me wonder about this .
unkx80: From the tone of my commentary, you probably can tell that I could not find a move that really appeals to me. It is not that the soldiers' suggestions are bad. It's the overall low position.
Andy: This is one of the big challenges of go. You can make a series of moves, each of which is locally correct, yet wind up with a position you don't really like. My guess is that manipulating the board so the sum of your locally correct moves is better than the sum of your opponent's locally correct moves is an important aspect of higher (than my) level play.
unkx80: Although I say that this is a position I don't like, I cannot be sure that this position is really suboptimal for White. It's more of a statement about myself and my opinions. But Herman, who is always looking at the brighter side of things, seems to think otherwise. =)
Anyway, we can come back to this move later. I can't say a lot without a number of forward-looking statements, and I noticed that Herman has carefully crafted his responses not to give away too much either.
Herman: I do not think the current position is bad for white, although I can certainly see why it might not appeal to many people. In the game up until now, black has very much chosen the course that the game takes. Specifically, and are moves which focus very much on building influence. Both those moves are locally rare. is more common as an invasion, is more common as an extension or a pincer. The reason for this is that these moves give white quite a bit of territory. They very much need to be part of a good consistent overall plan, otherwise they will fall short in compensating for the territory they give. I think that black has very much aimed for that consistency in building their bottom moyo, which is why black has an interesting position with lots of potential. White, on the other hand, has had very little choice but to take the big corners offered and await what is coming. The game, I think will very much hinge on how efficient black will be able to use their influence. Using influence is often hard but fun. Using territory is often easy but boring. Personally, I think the current position is (very) slightly better for white, but a lot more interesting for black :-)
- gaius: After some thought, I think O17 'a' is the biggest point on the board. The one problem is that black will probably get 'b'. But I think that it is OK to let him have that point; if we can build a position along the top side I have the feeling that white's territory is worth more than black's moyo + center influence.
The other idea, then, would be to play D6 'b' ourselves, but I have the feeling that though it's super-thick and super-big, it might be a just a fraction too slow, if black gets an extension along the top the game feels OK for them again...
- Antone: I was thinking the high shimari at D15 c. Once we get that an extension around the star point at the top or the 'b' point feel like miai
- Andy: I'm going to suggest d (O16), the high version of a. I think the high approach gives better balance with our D17 stone and keeps a little more of an eye on black's center. The problem with a is that black can attach at d, end in sente and play against the lower right corner to take the right side and the center, which is too much.
- philjun: I actually like D6 (b). It finishes a joseki locally, it is thick, it serves to hold black's growing moyo in check by gaining access to the center and avoiding being pressed down low, and if black makes an approach in the upper left, a white stone at D6 (b) would work well with a pincer. Even though we give up sente and allow black a big point elsewhere, this seems to me to be an ideal multi-purpose move. Just to provide some options, am going to suggest E6 (e) as well. This move seems a bit thin but might be doable.
- tapir: I like a, propose R14 f (to make our captains do some explanation work), and would consider c only when on the third line. Other than that I wonder, whether we could have played the shoulderhit earlier before approaching the lower right corner.
- Chew Since all of the 'logical' choices are suggested, I'll make something a bit different. I suggest L17 g. While this seems a bit slack, it invites black to do one of a few options that look acceptable to us. If they extend from the top right, we can either complete our shimari in the top left (Which is right-facing and makes g look better) or extend on the top to somewhere between our two stones for some side territory. If black kakari's on the top, we can just extend along the top, then take our following sente to expand on the bottom left. If black tries to approach one of our top stones, we can put pressure on by extending to pincer it. This move may be suboptimal, but I think it might be interesting.
- Fwiffo: I'll suggest the low shimari of C15 (h). Finishing an enclosure is always a high priority in the opening and the high shimari has some drawbacks. This is one of those situations where I have a hard time seeing what direction things should go in, and the number of suggestions so far seem to indicate that it's a tough question... Although, I'd add that there's probably a reason why b (D6) is joseki...
- FireclawDrake: I'd like to put D11 (i) on the table. While this move does allow black the chance to seize the initiative, it also works well with all our stones on the left side I feel, and forces black to seriously considering invading the left side, which could strengthen us towards the outside. (i on the board is not at D10, it is at D11. Would you clarify which you intended? -Chew) (Because I'm choosing, Ive chosen to discuss D11, which seems the more likely intended option --Herman Yes this was the intended option. - FireclawDrake
Herman chooses D15 (c): At the moment, white has invested heavily in territory, and all our stones are on the 3rd line. For balance, I think it is important to get some influence, and I therefore want to make a high move. This is why I prefer D15 over C15 (h). C15 would turn yet another corner into points, but that's it. I want to play more actively, otherwise we'll just be pushed around all over the board during the middle game, and I hate that :-)
The other primary high option would have been D6 (b). I prefer D15, because I want to be first to play another move in this corner. If black wanted to play D6, I think they should have done so before playing J5, to develop on a large scale. With J5, black has chosen to solidify their moyo into (mostly) territory, and D6 is no longer urgent.
The approach at O17 (a) is also a very interesting option. It is the only corner that white has not played in yet. But since both sides are still open, and black has only made one play in this corner so far, I do not think it is urgent. I'd like to keep our options open for a little longer here. I dismissed the other approaches suggested O16 (d) and R14 (f), for much the same reason. If we were to play in this corner now, however, then O17 would be the best approach. O17 is better than R14 because it is in the largest open area, and has development potential with the white stone in the upper left at D17. It is better than O16 because O16 gives away too many points. O16 is a special purpose move, which aims at developing at a large scale, but it needs a lot more support in the upper left than it has in this position (For an example, see: Side pattern - Rin Kaiho's Onadare and 4-4 high approach)
The keima at E6 (e) is, as philjun already noted, too thin. Black's position along the lower edge is super soild, and white wants to tread carefully when dealing with it. Being too thin is a surefire way of allowing black to use their thickness to maximum effect.
The side moves at L17 (g) and D11 (i), are both interesting plays, that aim at working together efficiently with the stone in the upper left at D17. They are also, however, somewhat thin. Black would love nothing more than to invade and split white's stones, to allow his thickness to come into play. I prefer the move chosen, D15, over a side move because it is solid and thick. This way, we build power first, and can then develop along the edges later.
- Andy: Kogo's suggests a (S7) as a suitable continuation. This looks fine to me. The solidity of this move has the advantage of making black's Q16 stone less interesting.
- Fwiffo: IIRC, b (R2) also sees action in pro play. It does a sufficient job of protecting against black pushing at R5, which is the most important thing, and is also reverse sente. Its merit over S7 is that black has to choose between having open skirts on both sides on the bottom or giving us sente.
- philjun: I like b (R2). White's position is solid and black has two open skirts. Black will most likely take sente to press down on the left side. Still, with no weak groups, I think white will be ready to fight. I must also admit that I don't understand the logic behind a (S7) in the local context.
- FireclawDrake: For the sake of argument, I'm going to put c (Q6). This is more aggressive and less solid. I don't like this move personally but we do want to give our captains options.
- Antone: We know that very soon there's going to be a fight inside black's moyo. In this situation in a game I might be tempted to simply connect solidly at d (R5), It's simple, it's slow, but it's also very solid and gives a strong platform for attack. It basically says to the opponent: "You better defend because I'm coming in there to get you". I know I would feel uncomfortable being black. Then again maybe it only works against other ddk's like me. It does not really threaten anything specific, exept maybe a clamp ? I guess I like a better
- sh: Why not start to reduce black's emerging moyo? I suggest e at K4
Herman chooses R2 (b): White must spend one more move locally, otherwise black will take the corner (as Fwiffo's first diagram below shows). This means we have no time to play the shoulder hit at K4 (e) yet. The move at c doesn't work locally, as it can be caught in a ladder. That leaves R2, R5 or S7, all of which are options for defending against the cut, and all of which are seen in pro play. I have chosen R2 over the other two, because it gives us the additional option of invading instead of reducing black's moyo. If black decides to defend against a shoulder hit with a move at J5, then white can invade and the threat of connecting under to R2 will support that invasion. The down side to this move is that black has more options on the right edge, like R7 or R8. This was a genuinely hard choice, but in the end I felt that black's moyo at the bottom, especially if expanded by moves like D6 and J5, merits more attention right now than the position that black might build on the right. We'll deal with that when and if it happens.
- Chew: If we don't play at R4 (a), we lose too much of the corner that we just invaded for. So we stick to the plan?
- philjun: R4 indeed seems to be the only move.
- Fwiffo: R4 only only only move.
Herman agrees that R4 is the only move :-)
- Fwiffo: Yuck. I don't care what we do so long as we get away from here with sente. I don't have any ideas for now.
- Chew: Things are looking a bit rough already, but we may as well suggest something. I'll suggest Q8 (a) to buy a little room for our stone on the right. That puts a little more pressure on white below, so that we may have more options if we do decide to invade at O3 before they close it off. With a, if they attack the right we can invade the bottom and if they defend the bottom, we can extend to somewhere around R10 or R11.
- emeraldemon: O3 (b) to foil black's plans for a big moyo on bottom.
- tapir: White is fine with 3-3. If Black takes the left side, we can gently reduce at the star point (shoulder hit) later. If Black takes the other side it looks even better to my eyes.
- Andy: Also put me down for 3-3 at c (R3). White gets some territory and black gets sente. It seems black has to spend a move to seal the bottom otherwise the shoulder hit gives white an easy game, but I'm not sure there's a really effective next move for black on the bottom.
- philjun: I also want to play Q8 (a), but just to provide some options, I am going to suggest S4 (d).
- Antone: how about leaving for now and shoulderhitting on K4 immediately ? does not put a lot of pressure on our stone, while the goal of limiting the black moyo from the top has been somewhat accomplished.
- tapir: If we shoulderhit immediately Black can take the other side after the 3-3 invasion and the shoulderhit is kind of wasted then (but may be it looks like a good forcing move then, i really dunno)
Herman chooses R3 (c): I have researched this position somewhat, the result of which can be found at BQM 455. In pro play against this capping move, there are three common responses, all three of which have been suggested. They are the knight's move extension at a, the double approach at b and the 3-3 invasion at c. The double approach is not played when black has a stone close enough along the lower edge (the stone), because then black can play 3-3 and white will have two problems. I prefer the 3-3 invasion. It is better than the extension in this position, because either black chooses to split (R4), in which case the black stone at J3 will lose some of its efficiency, or black will block (Q3), in which case white can still reduce with a shoulder hit later (as mentioned by tapir already). With the knight's move extension, black can play another capping play, and then white will not have time to reduce, and black will be able to build an impressive moyo on the lower side. The slide at d is too slow and slightly heavy. Black would happily play 3-3, and would then have both gotten points in the corner and influence along the lower side, while white is still weak. The shoulder hit at e is too early, whether we want to play it depends on how black responds in this corner, and if we play it now, we're almost sure to end in gote, allowing black another move in this corner to take points, which would make the reduction meaningless.
Moves 1 to 10
- FireclawDrake: I'd like to suggest R10 (a), to put a wedge between the two hoshi stones.
- philjun: I'll suggest a kakari at R6 (b). I don't really like the wedge at R10, because black would be able to make a checking extension at R8 and start bulding a moyo on the lower and lower right side. If black pincers R6, we always have the opportunity of jumping out and reducing black's influence, although invading at the 3-3 point would also be a possibilty.
- Chew: I like R10 at (a), but for some variety I'll suggest O3 (c). Makes a two-space extension and a corner invasion miai. May not be worth it, but it's interesting.
- Fwiffo: I would prefer b (R6). The joseki in the lower left has a local continuation, but it is not mandatory. With black threatening to form a large framework in the lower right, it would be too slow. Likewise for a shimari in the upper left, which would normally be a high priority. If black plays a low pincer, I do not favor jumping up; the floating wall we get with the usual joseki won't work well with our existing stones. Although our initial choice of a 5-3 point was influence-oriented, as the board now stands, all of our stones are territory-oriented. So I think it's OK to assume a territorial attitude and take the corner in response to the pincer. If black blocks at Q3 as expected (the other direction would be a disaster for black), we retain sente, which gives us time to play a reducing move on the bottom (e.g. a cap or shoulder hit on the J3 stone). We'd have both corners and the bottom won't be overly big, so we can be satisfied.
- Fwiffo: To expand on this a bit; if black doesn't pincer, but instead responds with the high extension of O4, then the J3 stone is a tad far away, which leaves a weakness. The low extension of O3, then the bottom side is weirdly low. So neither of these extensions is entirely satisfying for black.
- Andy: I agree with the kakari at b. In response to a pincer, I like the double-kakari at c (O3). Given , I don't think black has a very attractive continuation here. Just to have the possibility out there, for a big-scale moyo game, white could try d O16.
- emeraldemon: I think maybe the right side is smaller than the left now, and a play around our komoku like e (C14) is appropriate.
- Antone: The local continuation at D6 (f) is huge and threatens a moyo on the left. I think it's well worth suggesting it.
- jasavol1: Let's repeate the former suggestion about D10 (g).
unkx80 chooses R6 (b). This move is where I would play by intuition, and I agree with the very detailed arguments for this move. To summarize, with Black aims to make a double wing formation and thus the lower right side is now the largest area. Approaching from the wider side with R6 (b) is the appropriate move, which also gives Black no very good response thanks to the far and low position of the stone. Comments on the other moves:
- For my style, I don't like the lacklusture move of R10 (a). Instead of White choosing his desired action, he hands the choice off to Black.
- O3 (c) is something like an invasion, which is not necessary at this stage of the game.
- D6 (f) is the next move I'll consider after R6 (b) and O3 (c), but it's rather slow and allows Black to play at the coveted lower-right area.
- O16 (d) and C14 (e) are large opening moves but not as large as the lower right.
- D10 (g) is not the best point to play on the left side. It does not coordinate well with or .
- Fwiffo: I'm gonna go ahead and jump ahead. Black really has no alternative to for move 7, and I suggest at a (D2) as the response. If black somehow fails to play , we should not hesitate to play there ourselves. (edit: Black, in fact, did play there)
- FireclawDrake: The only other joseki continuation here is b (D4). I think this is a better play, because it more easily allows us to steal their extension or make our own.
- sh: I'd suggest a big move at the side at d10 (c)
- Chew: I agree with at a. I like that it aids our shape but also threatens the bottom, if only a little.
- philjun: I am in favor of standing up with b. I think a on the second line is a little slow, and it will give black the opportunity to tenuki at some point in the joseki sequence. As Fireclawdrake noted, b gives us the possibility of stealing black's extension on the lower side as black will most likely not tenuki in this case (because white will then have the excellent move at x).
- Antone: This is the typical situation that I do not like. The continuation I am worried about is: white a, black extends to J3 or J4, we extend also, black completes his sanrensei and then it looks like white is in trouble. On the other hand to tenuki now looks bad because whatever we do is hardly going to be sente. Having said this since the best local continuations have already been suggested I'll go with preventing sanrensei at Q10 (d)
- Andy: e at E6. The goal of was to emphasize the side, so switching to the corner now is inconsistent strategy. In a moyo based game e is the key point to get ahead whereas playing b and letting black play x gives black the lead in moyo building. can be treated lightly since it would be too slow for black to go after this stone directly by pushing through at b right away.
Herman chooses D2 (a): It's either this or D4 (b), white cannot really play tenuki now (though the moves at or around c, d or e are still interesting for later). With either of those moves, black will get to extend along the lower side. With D2, black normally makes three space extension, with D4, black will move up once (E5), and then after white plays D6 (pretty much mandatory) can extend four spaces. Since a four space extension works better with black's 4-4 stone in the lower right than a three space extension, I prefer this variation. See also the diagrams below.
Herman Compare these two diagrams. In the second one, the invasion at a is still open because the two space extension to b is still available. In the second diagram, the invasion is cramped by the position of the stone, and the extension to b is painfully narrow. So in the second diagram, black's stones are working together better.
- Antone: playing 4-4 at a (D4) is joseki
- emeraldemon: might D3 (b) work?
- Fwiffo: While I'm fond of b to take a nice corner, I'm going to advocate for the high shimari at D15 (c), to give our captains a diverse set of choices.
- philjun: I am also in favor of playing at b. If black descends to the point below , white will stand up at a and gets a nice corner.
- FireclawDrake: As most other moves have already been suggested, I'm going to suggest E5 (d). I feel this would help us build on the left side, while also giving us some good central influence.
- sh: An unsymmetric move in the corner cries for a shimari. Answering the opponent's kakari would cause another kakari at the top. Securing the top with D15 (c) is my choice. If black takes the bottom left corner, white has a good extension from the shimari.
- tapir: e (O17).
- gurujeet: I like 4-4 at 'a' (D4).
Herman chooses D3 (b) I like this big corner, we'll deal with black's influence later. I will write a more extensive commentary tonight (have to run, playing a tournament), but this way the black team start thinking again!
- philjun: I would suggest playing at a (D3), making a mukai komoku pattern. Black will problary next approach one of the corners or make a sanrensei. Either way, it should give an exciting game.
- Fwiffo: It's a little odd, but I'm gonna suggest the 3-3, b (C3). Black, by playing two 4-4 points, is going for influence and is opening fast. White can't keep up if we try to compete on those terms. Taking a territorial stance can counter that and the 3-3 is a fast way to take the remaining corner. (My other choice is to play the 4-4, but I'm sure someone else will suggest that).
- Chew: I second Fwiffo. But I tend to favor the land-grab.
- emeraldemon: 34 + 44(c) = balance. (D4)
- sh: I favor the 4-4(c) point. A move at the 3-4 point (a) seems bad to me since black can invade at d10 and then approach at either d15 or d5.
- tapir: d (C4) should be possible.
- gaius: Oooh, 'e' (C5) please please! That's one of my favourites :)
- Antone: I guess I would play 'a' an a game, but if 'e' is an option then 'f' at E3 should be possible, or does that just ask for black C4 ?
Herman chooses C5 (e): As with the last move, almost any move in this corner is good. I've chosen C5 because I like the balance that this creates with White's upper left, and because I like some variation, so now we have a 4-3 and a 5-3 corner stone. I think that f is really the only move here that can be criticized, because it feels like it has poor balance with the upper left, but even so, I think it is still quite playable (especially in an amateur game).
- FireclawDrake: Might as well get this party started. Black is probably gonna to play in the upper right corner. I personally like the 5-3 answer at either b (E17) or c (C15).
- Chew: Well, if we're opening up suggestions, I'll take a stab. Drake, I hope you don't mind, I edited my suggestion into move d (C17) in your diagram. I like playing one balanced (3-3 or 4-4) corner move for balance, so as to deprioritize the corner and let you play your own approaches earlier. And 3-3 does this even more by settling a little easier.
- Fwiffo: I prefer a parallel fuseki, so I'll advocate for e (D4), the 4-4 in the lower left. There's nothing weird about Black's opening, so no need to do anything exotic; we can keep it simple. Any of the 3-4 points lets black choose an opposing corner that faces it (e.g. at f and at e) and then Black's approach to the 3-4 stone with would work well with his other stones. If we want to play a 3-4 stone, we can do it with , and choose a direction that doesn't work so well with Black's other stones.
- Antone: I also want to try 5-3 for a change, but I'd prefer E17 (b) rather than C15, so we can get crab eyes!
- tapir: 3-4 at f (D17)
- gurujeet: I'm with Fwiffo, 4-4 at 'e' for a prallel fuseki
Herman chooses D17 (f): At this stage of the game, all the suggestions are perfectly valid alternatives. The only one I really dislike is c (C15), because I feel that it develops in the wrong direction. at 4-4 is a move that does not prioritize either side, so it develops both the upper side and the right side. c would leave black the option of later approaching high at 5-4 (E16) to develop the upper side. I think b is an interesting idea, and I doubted for a long time between b and f. I discarded d because I personally do not like playing 3-3 much, I like to develop quickly and play with influence, so 3-3 is not for me. I didn't choose e because it has a high chance of developing into either the Kobayashi Fuseki or the Small Chinese Fuseki, and I think those are overplayed a bit currently. So that left f, which I personally tend to play in real life games as well in this position :)