schEkkEr You know why HipHop?-Fans always fail to make territory? Because they always play "Yo! Seki!"
Dieter: Today I thought, let's get rid of this absurd rank of 4d? and play a game. I played against a 3d and won by time. My rank got up to 6d? ... I should be 2d and then declining. For all those people out there who think they're ranked too low, I'm the one winning all your lottery money!
Herman: Obviously, you don't play enough. I recently went from 3d? to 5d? by winning one game as well, so obviously, neither do I :-)
Tapir: Ongoing Game 7 can still absorb some players. Please join.
Tapir: I've seen someone looking for the variations which actually make the Shusai/Myoshu an excellent move. And I recognized I didn't even try... so at least you should :)
The front page features the article Secret of Art War? and then uses the image from Ma Xiaochun's book. The Secrets of Art War? page does not show Ma Xiaochun's book. They are related but the relationship is hidden from those that read the front page. Confusing?
Confusion ends on monday :)
tapir: There is some time til the next ongoing game, but i propose to take the first 50 moves of a professional game and start from that point. There was a tournament this way somewhere in germany and i would like to try this. Another idea popping up... can we organize book reviews in a more transparent obvious and activating way?
Herman: Personally, I enjoy the opening a lot, and would rather we play it ourselves :-)
I agree about the book reviews. In theory, the wiki format should provide an excellent venue for adding reviews to books. There are no obstacles at all, anyone can edit. Perhaps people have the idea that the "Reviews" section on book pages is supposed to give links to "official" reviews? Perhaps, instead of a "To be added" text in empty review sections, we should have something like "Have this book? Add a review!".
Velobici: Sounds good. Is there an automated way of making this change ?
Herman: No, there isn't, unless Arno starts doing things directly in the database, which sounds like very bad idea :-)
Phelan: Wouldn't "mass edit" allow this? I don't have much experience with it, but I assume it might help here.
tapir: No. Mass edit is for uniform additions to the first or last line. I doubt this is necessary. It is not, that we are lacking to do lists or so... :) I want to see reviews for already reviewed books anyway. I like the changes on the front page btw -- just let us look what happens.
fractic: You could modify the book template but that will of course only affect pages that actually use it.
Velobici: The book template contains that portion located in the upper right corner. The description, contents, reviews, sample material sections of the book pages are not part of the book template.
tapir: As in my recent contribution to article of the week/nomination... I feel strongly that we should encourage / push / show the easy-to-add-sth./interactive pages more, let it be book reviews, collective game discussion, ongoing games etc.
Herman: Perhaps we should use the front page? Expand the "Contribute" section to give a list of suggestions like this? Many people may never have considered writing a book review as being something they can contribute to SL, so maybe we should suggest it.
tapir: The contribution line dropped beneath the AotW-Table btw - but I guess this doesn't change much :) But maybe we can feature some easy-to-contribute-pages there as well - the data collection gained some recognition and contribution that way.
Herman: I've moved it to above the AotW, and added a short list of suggestions. Anything else we feel needs to be there?
SL here is fun to go through. But at times I get a bit lost when it comes to getting to the page I need to write in. My mind blanks like being stumped by a tsumego. SL is huge. SL has plenty of serendipity. SL is also hard to navigate at times. This got me wondering... if a person wanted to change the design without changing SL, they could make their own internet site and reference the material live from SL (possibly with an embeded widget)? There is some great stuff here that's fun to share and go through. Through the power of Random-Page alone, old pages gain new short term life through public scrutiny of Recent Changes. I have once asked for a "timed expiry date" as a page function made by the page creator. This is but one way that users can help make SL more readble. I am a beliver that the users are important in managing the design on SL. If given more flexible tools, more could get done without the nasty work a re-design would take.
Dieter: You have great ideas there, but people create pages without even the most basic attribution of keywords, even experienced users (like myself when I'm not cautious), so I don't have high hopes there. Recently Herman and the rest did a great job in redesigning the front page and feature articles, factually implementing the idea of quality labels.
tapir: A "timed expiry date" would be great, though.
kokiri - long time no see. I was looking at a database of images from the mainichi shimbun - https://photobank.mainichi.co.jp/php/KK_search.php , and it has some interesting images related to go - in particular some photos of a Japan-America game from New York in 1937 with Lasker and Hatoyama Ichiro and a shot of a display board of a Japan-Germany telegraph game from 1935. I don't think i can really link to them, but if you go to the website and search for the string 囲碁, then the results come in order from new to old.
ThorAvaTahr: I would feel like playing a discussion go game. I.E. setting up a page where we have two teams discussing a move for a day, than at the end of the day have a vote and play the move with the most votes. Probably, something like this has been done here in the past. However, I fear that there is insufficient animo for such an idea. Who would be in favor?
brugo.be is apparently black-listed on wikipedia for an unknown reason... any body edits there? they're asking for a qualified editor to ok it ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist (which to me sounds really odd, but... Reuven)
Herman: Yeah, brugo ran afoul of the XWikiBot, which blacklists domains if they are posted bytoo often to too many pages on different Mediawiki wiki's (ie: wikipedia, wiktionary, wikibooks, wikiquote, commons, etc... ( list)) by anonymous editors. I've supported the un-blacklisting of brugo now.
ThorAvaTahr: I have also added a note of support for brugo to this page. However, my vote is not heavy, since I have only one Wikipage edit on my name. I feel I would like to advertise both brugo.be and the vote of unblocking it by sending an email to the dutch go mailing list. Would this be appropriate?
Herman: I think that posting about the blacklisting is more likely to be unhelpful. As they have stated on wikipedia several times: The support of non established editors carries no weight, and I think it is probably more likely to annoy them if there's suddenly a flood of messages. If my personal support is not sufficient, very little is going to help (except perhaps the support of Charles Matthews or Andre Engels). So I think it is best to let this run its course for now.
Herman: Oh, and other than that, brugo is certainly an interesting link to post to the dutch mailing list :)
Having looked through the edit history I can kind of understand why it got blacklisted, but it's still strange overall. To be perfectly honest though, I don't think BruGo has a place as an external link. Only a site/book/product/etc allowing you to understand what joseki are should be listed on wikipedia.
Herman: I understand why they blacklisted it, but currently it is on their global blacklist, which is for widespread, unmanagable spam. Which is bullshit.
Herman: A note for the editor that added BruGo to wikipedia, the following is always unacceptable behaviour! >:-(
This is not helping your case at all!
Herman: Ok, BruGo is now no longer blacklisted on wikipedia. It is still, however, on the !COIBot/!XWiki list, which is a robot that checks for COI (Conflict Of Interest). Site owners adding their own site to external link constitutes a conflict of interest, which is what triggered all this in the first place. So I would ask you to please contact me (at my wikipedia talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HermanHiddema) about any links to brugo.be you want to add.
Reuven: Ah I see, thanks and sorry for troubling you... =)
Phelan: Zillions of Games 2.0 claims it "includes real Go Engine". Does anyone know if it's developed by them, or an already existing one?
Willemien downloaded the demo version of Zillions, Zillions is an universal game engine, (Guess that means it can make game trees and has a minimax function.) The demo version has an option to play 4x4 go (for the other versions you need to buy the full version. It is not very strong it even lets you capture back in ko (but I haven't seen the program do this) found another Go variant on http://www.zillions-of-games.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cgi/5424?do=show;id=430 But you need to buy the full version before you can use this so I have no idea how strong the program is but I guess not very strong. The (main) program (Zillions universal game engine) is also relativly old (2002) and it doesn't look like it is still in development. I would not buy it if you are looing for a go playing program, but maybe nice for a boardgame geek. see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zillions_of_Games
Phelan: I had tried zillions long ago, didn't know this new version was that old (by the way, wikipedia lists version 2.0.1 as being from 2003). From my experience, it is stronger than the last version I had played. Still, I was curious if they were using an external engine, instead of a rule file being run by their general game engine. That is what I would like to know. P.S. - I am a board game geek, btw. :P
Anybody has a server where I could play (prefferably as a guest & without downloading any softwere for now - online applets are fine in the comp lobby but soon enough I'll have a comp) and (definitly) not using any exotic ports? as the unis fw blocks'em... - Reuven
fractic: You don't have to download a client to play on KGS you just need a browser with java which is pretty standard. Of course you could also play turn based on Dragon Go Server.
Phelan: KGS uses exotic ports, though. I can't use it at uni. Most Turn Based Go Servers should work, though. I recommend OGS.
Reuven:Ah thanks I'll checkout OGS. I did try DGS but I wanted faster games ^^*
Linking to Senseis Library Tour To Japan.
Daniel G (IGS 13k): Anyone watch that Honinbo tournament? Can you believe Hane came back to take the title after losing the first three games? WIth a name like Hane, you are a natural at Go though (not the same Japanese characters, but same sound), and Hane's father was a 9p also. Indeed, there is life and death in the Hane :-)
Lotuspalm (IGS 13k): I was just wondering about difference in skill of high ranked players. When I started playing, I thought for instance that a 9Pro could give a 1Pro an eight stone handicap, but that's not the case at all. I've seen a 2k beat a 7P with a seven stone handicap. Any comments?
Bob McGuigan: Pros rarely use handicaps in games with other pros but if they did, one rank would be one-third or one-fourth stone. See Jubango handicaps and the links on that page for more information on the old, pre-komi, pro handicap system in Japan. As for amateurs at high handicaps versus pros, I think those games must all be considered teaching games and they usually are part of simultaneous exhibitions, so the handicap is likely not what it would be if the pro were playing "for real". In 1986 or 87, when Jiang Zhujiu (then 8p) first visited the USA, he determined handicaps in simultaneous games by subtracting the amateur's dan rank from 9 to get the handicap. So, for example, an amateur 1d would take 8 stones and an amateur 5d would take 4 stones. Using this method he had a very good record against amateurs.
Lotuspalm (IGS 13k): I plan to go to the Go Congress in Portland in the beginning of August, and I was wondering what sort of things I can expect to be doing all day, I.E. playing games, listening to lectures, digging ditches, breaking rocks with a hammer, etc. Will anyone with past experience please talk about this?
Bob McGuigan: The U.S. Open Championship tournament rounds are most mornings. Afternoons can be filled with self-paired handicap tournament games, fun games, pro lectures, pro simultaneous games. Evening opportunities include lightning and small board tournaments, go variants, die-hard tournament, more pro activities. It is usually possible to take (for pay) individual or group pro lessons, too. See https://www.gocongress08.org/events.php for more activities. Wednesday is usually an opportunity for organized or free-form sightseeing, or more go if you can't get enough on the rest of the days.
yoyoma: I'm thinking about creating a couple pages. 1) Same as ShapeGame but with a solid wall (I prefer this because I think the one point jumps distracts from the overall idea of trying to live in a very large but very strong moyo). And 2) Sort of the companion idea of starting with a big cross, and white tries to live in one of the corners. I'm brainstorming page ideas for these... ShapeGameSolid? BiggestCorner? Also does the cross variation already have a page here?
Dieter: In the ever so interesting Goama's edition 94, there is a funny interview with Seo Bong Soo. Funny, because he describes his first steps in Internet Go, on Tygem. "I made mouse slips often and was angry every time, when my opponents escape or write bad words about myself. Nowadays I am getting more experience and I don’t pay much attention on such things." We've all been there, Mr. Seo!
He seems to be playing under his real name. And still there are escapers and loud mouths. Makes you think ...
Gabe: Does anybody else feel that the lines in the page background of Senseis make the pages hard to read? Maybe Senseis could benefit from a few minor design improvements?
LukeNine45: Can someone open a window or take a log out of the fireplace? It's getting hot in here...
Dieter: In Goama's edition 89, Alexandre Dinerchtein comments on the European Oza qualifying tournament. He's very positive about the organization but then goes on to philosophize on the top players' attendance or rather the lack thereof, in a somewhat despondent fashion. Together with the earlier accounts of the fall of Korean Go schools (and the diaspora of strong Koreans as its logical consequence) it gives an impression of the world of Go going into decline. It's an interesting read, as usual.
Incidentally, Alexandre mentions the "insult" Victor Bogdanov suffered in the Ing memorial in Amsterdam a few years ago. Does anybody know what he refers to?
Herman Hiddema: Hi Dieter,. I'm very interested, could you forward me this issue by email? (Received it, thank you!).
Regarding the "insult", this seems to be a lack of English fluency on Alexandre's part. This should have been "incident" or "accident". Victor suffered a cerebral hemorrhage (bleeding in the brain) at the Ing memorial 2003. He was taken to the hospital by ambulance and immediately operated (a six hour operation, as I understand it). Luckily, he survived the incident, but has lessened control over the right half of his body. His go has declined somewhat, from a strong 6 dan to a weak 5 dan, roughly. Other than that, he is fine (I met him just last wednesday at the Delft go club, and played a game against him).
kokiri - I wasn't sure where to link this, but I thought it was of some interest: Ozawa vs Yosano Political Go
Dieter: At work, I had an enlightening moment. I realized I was applying that capital Go wisdom: if you know what is important, you can achieve a lot with surprisingly little effort.
Chris Hayashida: Anyone go to the North American Oza? I'd love to hear your input about anything about the tournament.