Coffee Machine


Taking a break? Go ahead and add what's on your mind right now. Alternatively, take a look at some go humour, fun go facts, or great quotes.

N.B. If continuing a thread, add your remarks to the end, even if in a previous month. If starting a new thread, add it at the end of the current month; if that month is not yet present add it at the top of the page.

Motto for today:

"Kosumi is not a move" – Pierre Colmez, 6d

"Of course it is." – Bill

"コスミ (kosumi) は囲碁用語のひとつで、すでにある自分の石から斜め隣に打つ手(move)のこと。" – [ext]

Translation by [ext] Google: “Kosumi is a Go term, a move that strikes diagonally next to your own stone.”

PJT (2019-11-18): The above link leads me (¿via redirect?) to the Japanese Wikipedia article on the ampersand ([ext] Google translation)! Perhaps someone who knows Japanese could correct or explain? (It was [ext] added on 2019-09-28 by along with the preceding remark attributed to Bill.)

Bill: Link updated. :)

Malcolm: I believe that P Colmez said this as a sort of a joke. Kosumis are slow and steady, and this motto expresses a general preference for more dynamic or faster moves.

(You may change the motto of the day, but please save the old motto in Old Mottos.)

Go page on travel guide wiki

Wikivoyage recently added [ext] which mainly covers places to play or to buy equipment when travelling. Like any wiki page, it needs contributions. (Pashley)

February 2021

On 2021-02-03, in Firefox I get a security warning that the certificate for the website is out of date. --robert jasiek

On 2021-02-03, in Safari I also get a security warning that the certificate for the website is out of date. --robert jasiek

Herman: I had this a few days ago, but right now it works. The current certificate is shown as provided by LetsEncrypt? and valid until April 2nd 2021. Could your browser or provider be caching things?

Herman: Now I'm sporadically getting certificate errors, like it's sometimes serving the old one, sometimes the new one.

PeterHB: I'm having intermittent certificate errors in Windows chrome too.

RobertJasiek, 2021-02-04 6:30 UCT: Right now in Firefox with the setting "When a server requests your personal certificate | Ask you every time" and cookies cleared on closing browser, I do not get an error message.

Reuven: Saw the same cert expiring on feb 1st, approx 23pm uct 2021-feb-04 but now, some 29 mins later seeing one expiring on apr 3rd.

November 2020

Malcolm the edits "version 166 modified on October 31, 2020 - 00:22 by" for seem to me to be wrong and worthy of an "undo". Not sure if it should be called vandalism - it just seems incoherent to me! I'll probably do a manual "undo" later on at some point.

Patrick Traill That edit added two entries, neither in correct alphabetical order, one of which (Chen Dea ࢨ뷯晐) was wrongly formatted but otherwise not implausible at first sight, the other (Coyi bang 縙ꁹ) where it struck me as a little odd that a 9 dan should not be wiki-linked. Searching for the Chinese characters did not bring up primarily Go-related pages in either case, so I suspect it is advertising spam or juvenile vandalism – but I could be wrong! Perhaps someone familiar with the Chinese scene can help.

Malcolm Hi Patrick, I have intermediate knowledge of Chinese and the "Chen Dea" entry looks highly implausible to me. The first character doesn't seem to be Chinese; I think it looks like it's Arabic. Also Dea and Co are not valid Pinyin (Pinyin = the standard romanisation scheme used in mainland China). Do you have a "revert" button, or does it have to be a manual edit?

Patrick Traill 2020-11-12: I have erased that version, so it is no longer visible.

August 2019

Robert Jasiek (2019-08-29): Yesterday, vandalism attacking my homepage was thankfully quickly undone by Herman Hiddema. It was much more than wiki vandalism: personal, insulting attack criminal under the ordinary law with a possible sentence up to two years of prison. The temporary page tag "humour" does not change the nature of the contents.

Wiki Etiquette or Zarathustra's wisdom (do not do to others what you do not want being done to yourself) help. Contributors to Sensei's Library should also reflect the impact of their contributions to the overall development of go and this wiki. Personal attacks never help but might even endanger the existence of the wiki because the site owners might also be liable to some extent if attacks should not be noticed and removed soon. (It is not my intention to let them be liable, but third persons might decide such.)

It is possible to discuss or criticise persons or their actions but such must be done without personal attacks. There is also space for humour, if it is free of personal attacks. Even so, homepages should be, and have been, respected.

Patrick Traill (2019-08-30): I have since removed the version in question, as I saw no reason for it to be visible even via the page history. It was offensive, destructive and perhaps cowardly.

Robert Jasiek: Good, this is appropriate, thanks!

May 2019

Patrick Traill (2019-05-22): I observe that a number of pages try to use a Category Template? that no longer exists:

Pagename	Last modified	PageType	Difficulty	Keywords
Curtis Tang	2012-09-02 by	none	n/a	People
Dae Hyuk Ko	2011-11-30 by	none	n/a	People
Eric Lui	2017-11-13 by bugcat	none	n/a	People
Feng Yun	2018-10-19 by Raye	none	n/a	People
Francis Meyer	2014-08-13 by tapir	none	n/a	People
Jiang Mingjiu	2015-06-02 by Iepur	none	n/a	People
Jie Li	2011-11-30 by	none	n/a	People
Joey Hung	2011-11-30 by	none	n/a	People
John Lee	2016-12-15 by OscarBear?	none	n/a	People
Liang, Jie	2011-11-30 by	none	n/a
Liu Zhi Yuan	2017-09-22 by DudleyMoore	none	n/a	People
Thomas Hsiang	2014-10-06 by	none	n/a	People
Yang Yilun	2012-12-10 by Dieter	none	n/a	People
Zhaonian Chen	2012-05-30 by	none	n/a	People

It evidently did exist, as these changes can be found by a search of recent changes:

Pagename	Diff	Username	MinorEdit	Version	Last modified
CategoryTemplate?	diff	Dieter* (	1	0	2019-05-15 12:58
CategoryTemplate?	diff	Dieter* (	0	3	2014-06-20 15:24
CategoryTemplate?	diff	Dieter* (	0	0	2014-06-20 12:07
CategoryTemplate?/List	diff	Dieter* (	0	0	2014-06-20 12:06
CategoryTemplate?/List	diff	tapir*  (	1	3	2011-12-15 21:21
CategoryTemplate?	diff	tapir*  (	1	6	2011-11-28 13:18
CategoryTemplate?/List	diff	tapir*  (	0	2	2011-11-28 13:17
CategoryTemplate?	diff	tapir*  (	0	0	2011-11-28 13:12
CategoryTemplate?	diff	tapir*  (	1	5	2011-11-27 14:02

It looks a bit as though it was deleted in error: does anyone know more?

tapir: If memory serves correctly this was once tried in a few rare cases (your examples are all America based professionals / top players) to have sth. more akin to categories in the wikipedia world. I am not sure when and how it was removed or whether data loss intervened to produce the inconsistencies. There was no real content on the category template page involved, just an attempts to use the default mechanics of templates to auto-generate lists.

PJT (2019-09-27): Indeed, I see that a few samples (those now linked) all contain the invocation {{category|name=topamericanplayer}}. I often wonder whether the effort put into categorising on Wikipedia really pays off! Should we remove these invocations, or is there any chance of them becoming useful?

tapir: I would remove it, mainly because I now find the autogenerated lists a gimmick that makes editing harder (need to learn about templates and autogenerated lists), not really saves work (unless you have a flurry of lists you maintain this way), auto-generated lists have a bunch of issues due to browser cache (or even weird interactions I learned about post data loss event, where I ended up making empty edits to pages to get them listed again), you can't even properly format said lists. At wikipedia a lot of busywork is done that contributes nothing, some of it may be necessary for access, navigation ... but in the articles I wrote I often saw 50-100 busywork edits over the years while the original content still stands as good or bad as it was back then. Having editcount as some sort of credential of course does not help.

tapir: And I did remove them.

December 2018

Patrick Traill (2018-12-24): I have added a provisional definition to Rogue ko, based on my reading of the available material. It would be helpful if Bill Spight or someone similar (but is there anyone similar?!) could check it and tidy up as appropriate.

September 2018

Patrick Traill (2018-09-02): I have recently noticed several edits such as [ext] which mainly just add ‘%%%%’ after loads of diagrams to force the following text below rather than to the right of the diagram. Sometimes this is desirable, as the text has little or nothing more to do with the diagram, but in cases such as the edit above that is not so (though it does also add useful content). If anything, I have the impression that the intent is to make the article fit onto a narrow (e.g. mobile phone) screen, as the text is indeed a commentary on the diagram. While I can see that is helpful on a mobile, I find it a shame on a larger screen. While the ideal situation would be (as on Wikipedia) pages that adapt to the user’s device, I do not think we have the resources for that. What does anyone feel?

Patrick Traill (2018-09-02): I agree that the material around The Art of 9x9 Go should really be tolerated as sub-pages of the author (Monteo), but I see that even the author’s page has been blanked; whether by the author themself in a fit of modesty I cannot tell. I fear that SL lacks the tools to deal with this sort of problem, and after looking at the stuff I do not care much either.

tapir: I feel page rename and page delete are sufficient tools to deal with it in principle. Just as a librarian it feels very lonely to make the decisions since feedback on library work is completely gone. Since Monteo is gone, delete seems appropriate to me.

May 2018

Patrick Traill: I see a bunch of edits by blanking The Art of 9x9 Go, a reference to it and Art of 9x9 — do we care?

Patrick Traill: I have added an instruction (with caveat) at the top for where to post, but is it right?

VanMorrison? - Given the hubris of ArtOfGo? I don't care.

tapir: It is a wiki. You can just revert. For an ebook I find it surprising that no way for purchase or download was ever mentioned, none of the postimg images shows as well. Or as the author writes: "My ebook, The Art of 9x9 Go: How to Beat Dan Players at GoQuest, will be the best 9x9 ebook by 2027, and helps some kyu players breakthrough to shodan." - Polite way would be to move the whole thing to a subpage of the author, but as it has subpages as well that won't do.

tapir: I revived for now. This should be a subpage or deleted imo, but not by blanking the page and leaving the subpages in the limbo. Opinions welcome. See also: Page Delete Requests

April 2018

bugcat: The site, which hosts some of our images such as the one on Karigane Junichi's page, has been down for a few days. It is looking increasingly likely that as a website, it is gone for good. So I wanted to provide a place for discussion over how to replace the affected images, what images need replacing, and whether or not in the future we should host important images actually on the SL server.

Affected images:

In Karigane Junichi: "Tamura, Shuei, Karigane", [ext]
In Honinbo Shuei: "Honinbo Shuei (本因坊秀栄)", [ext]
In Jowa: "Honinbo Jowa (本因坊丈和)", [ext]
In Go Seigen: "Go Seigen (吳清源)", [ext]
In Kitani Minoru: "Kitani Minoru (木谷実)", [ext]

Other affected pages include Maeda Nobuaki, Hashimoto Utaro, and Sekiyama Riichi.

... Are in fact ALL of our major images hosted on postimg?

Patrick Traill: While, being fairly new here, I would not know what is hosted where, I was wondering whether we might do well to use WikiMedia Commons, e.g. Go Seigen at [ext] I see that there is no image in [ext] the English article on Honinbo Shusai, but there is a (less than ideal) one in [ext] the Japanese article. Having looked, my impression is that there are currently not that many good images available on WikiMedia. It is perhaps conceivable that we might be able to improve WikiMedia, but perhaps it is risky to use images outside our control. Any thoughts?

Herman: All images on SL are hosted on a variety of outside services. That has risks, as the disappearance of postimg shows. Ideally, it would be great if SL had its own file/image hosting, but that would add a large bandwidth cost to hosting it, as well as issues w.r.t. copyright and abuse. If we allow anyone to upload, which would be consistent with the spirit of a wiki, then you need to police the uploads constantly to avoid copyright infringement and to remove uploads unrelated to go. Wikimedia is a good source, as it is a large project which probably isn't going anywhere for a while, and because it already keeps track of copyright for images.

tapir: A good chunk of images are (current and legacy) player portraits. For them the best practice would imo be to write the major Go associations a polite letter, whether they are fine with their player portraits inlined here. A bit late ... and of course that means removing portraits when the answer is no.

bugcat: To Patrick Traill: I don't think that WikiMedia permits other sites to leech their images (that is, to display them on another website via link to WikiMedia.) In fact, I tried to use that very image of Go Seigen on the relevant page and it didn't show up.

PS. Could you sign your post please? Patrick Traill: Done, sorry! (Also corrected your spelling of my name!)

To tapir: I think perhaps that would be foolhardy if we can leech the images from their sites without forcing ourselves to ask permission, as we do with the Nihon Kiin for example. Better not to ask to be allowed if we don't have to.

Also: I've just realised that we can find at least some of the old images on archived pages of SL that are hosted on the Internet Archive?. For instance, I just found our old image of Jowa: Perhaps this would be the best source of replacement images, to use the archived versions of the old ones.

Patrick Traill: If we cannot use the images stored in WikiMedia (which I have made an alias of Wikipedia, where I have added information), then it is a bit pointless; I wondered about copying from there if their terms permit it, but that does not solve much.

Bass: Stack Exchange hosts their users' images on [ext] Imgur. Imgur's policy is "The Imgur API is free for non-commercial usage. Your application is probably free if you don't plan on making any money with it, or if it's open source." Maybe we should integrate Imgur image uploading to the wiki?

Patrick Traill: Sounds promising!

tapir: Well, removing them (leeched player pics) if request is unanswered or answered w/ no is at least unambiguous, but of course I never felt entitled to write a letter on behalf of SL. Regardless of how we end up handling individual cases, we should have some way of keeping track of problems. E.g. currently plenty of photobucket images. I once added a page Image Workshop? to do so, but it got 0 traction so I abandoned (and deleted) it after a while.

Old coffee

Coffee Machine last edited by Reuven on February 5, 2021 - 00:30
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