Wu Ren Go 1 / White

Sub-page of WuRenGo1

Table of contents

Moves 51 - 60

Moves 51 to 60  
  • W52 suggestions
    • Dansc: Well, let me start by suggesting the obvious choice of M5 (a). Next we should look at attacking either the left side or the bottom, whichever black doesn't protect next.
    • FireclawDrake: I think, if we're aiming to protect the cut, a move at L5 (b) serves the same purpose and helps us a bit more if we need to run.
    • tapir: c is another, maybe bad choice. White feels like dozens of points behind mainly because of the handling of the running group.
    • kanzenryu: White Resigns. This may be a little controversial, but I am going to strongly advocate resigning at this point. We seem to be running out of enthusiasm to make moves in a reasonable timeframe. I've enjoyed the game a lot, learned a few things, and I think it would be better to resign and start a fresh game than to continue slowly when we are so far behind. Thoughts?
    • kanzenryu: In particular I'm going to start reading the Black page now :-)
    • FireclawDrake: I am in favour of resigning and starting a new game. I'm loving this game format.
    • tapir: d is another possibility
    • Dansc: I'm up for resigning, as long as we start a new game as soon as possible :) Then again, maybe we'd like to try a last big fight before resigning, perhaps at (e), (f), (g) or (h). We can always make life with (d) later if this group gets in too much trouble.

Moves 41 - 50

Moves 41 to 50  
  • W50 suggestions
    • Dansc: We have a few possibilities here. I'm going to start by proposing a) D5. We need to protect against the cut, the bamboo joint doesn't give black any forcing moves, and it avoids inducing Black to strengthen his B45.
    • kanzenryu: b) d6 This should also protect the cut.
    • Andy: c) D3. Go ahead and cut.
  • W50 decision
    • kb: The block at D3 is joseki here, and is the proper move (base first!)
  • W48 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) f5 keep heading out
    • Andy: b) E3
    • kanzenryu: If the enthusiam of the white team is fading then maybe we should consider resigning.
    • tapir: I prefer a now. But c later.
    • Dansc: Another vote for the obvious a). I think we should be looking to keep the black left side well separated from the bottom and strike there as soon as possible.
  • W48 decision
  • W46 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) s8 attacking with a clamp
    • tapir: b)
    • Andy: c) C3 with the idea of making miai of an attack at either of the circled points. Actually, resigning is also becoming an attractive option. :)
    • rmsp: d) L8, to cramp black's shape in hopes of an attack. We're going to have to give our captains lots of options here in the middle game!
  • W46 decision
    • kb: Attach on top. The corner situation is urgent, and Black is already low on the lower side. Clamping or attacking the right Black group will not yield fruit yet. Diving into the corner is likewise not advised, since Black's influence on the outside will make any attack against the right group impossible. (I'm still looking for someone to examine what problems the lower right Black group has now...)
  • W44 suggestions
    • tapir: a) O4 my only idea, it hurts...
    • Andy: I think a) is the only move, but I'm also going to suggest b) S2 settling locally. a) is good because it means black has violated the proverb of don't peep at bamboo joints.
    • kanzenryu: c) p5 just another option
  • W42 suggestions
    • tapir: a) S5 obviously
  • W42 decision
    • ThorAvaTahr: I agree. After this white shape is finished, black has the choice to fix his shape or to take sente leaving a weakness behind.

Andy: I agree with the move made, but would like comment on whether in this shape under some conditions the move at b is also possible. b invites a ko. If white wins the ko, white has two eyes and if white loses the ko, white doesn't have any eyes. With the move at a, if black gets a play at square, then the white group has only one eye and needs to run. I think this doesn't work for black right now because there is too much aji around circle. In other words, defending around circle and square are miai. Supposing white were komaster, is the play at b rather than a then correct?

ThorAvaTahr: To answer your question I think we need Bill's advise, however in principle I think that s4 is generally a bad idea, unless you urgently need to make life in ko. And even then only if you can win the ko. However, i am not sure I have sufficient knowledge to answer acurately.

Herman: Quick note: If white needs to live, the descent instead of the connection at a would do the trick in this position. Similarly, the bend at square would give life (while allowing black to capture a stone with a).

Moves 31 - 40

Moves 31 to 40  
  • W40 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) s5 ensure the white base.
    • tapir: b) s10 taking away the connection, big move in itself and forcing black to settle locally = small in gote (may be ajikeshi, but a is submissive imo)
    • Andy: c) s6. Prevent the eye stealing tesuji.
  • W40 decision
    • ThorAvaTahr: c is more active then a (s5); b(s10) does not make points and does not play on our weakest side. The difference in eyespace for white playing c(s6) or black playing a is too big.
  • W38 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) s7 prevent an eyemaking base.
    • rmsp: b) q5, connect against the peep. ugly but effective.
  • W38 decision
    • ThorAvaTahr: Correct shape, we cannot allow to be cut, here.
    • Andy: There are fancier ways to connect against this peep, like this alternative [38]. Is this too fancy?
    • tapir: I guess so. After black draws back, white is forced to make an empty triangle. And the team with the most empty triangles loses as seen in Ongoing game 6 :)
    • ThorAvaTahr: Too fancy indeed, imo. It bearly even works. Black can allready cut although he probably wont, but any move black makes threatens to cut. We don't want that kind of legacy unless we gain something very big. Here I don't see what it is that we gain. Also, please appreciate the fact that the actual move is good shape, we connect and at the same time make eyeshape.

Andy: Yeah, good thing we didn't have to make any empty triangles. :)

  • W36 suggestions
    • Andy: a) L4. If black wants to be (has to be?) pushing from behind while we isolate the weak black dragon, that sounds ok to me.
    • kanzenryu: b) L8. Niggle away at the weak black group.
    • tapir: c) C6. Always a possibility. I would play a). L8 doesn't coordinate well with W34 in place imho.
    • rmsp: d) J10. Leave the W34 B35 exchange as forcing and cap.
  • W36 decision
    • kb: This move is purely based on direction of play. It is of strategic importance for White to be running the show, since after white+circle White's group is significantly stronger than Black's. If more central influence can be made from attacking, the left Black group can be made thin, thus finding an appropriate response against B33.
    • kanzenryu: Doesn't this make us vulnerable to the TowerPeep ?
    • kb: Much much later perhaps, but White's shape is superior now, so the tower peep will give Black an inferior result.
    • unkx80: For this position, a tower peep is an overplay. However, if White fears the tower peep, then W36 may be played one point to the left.
    • kanzenryu: I wish I understood this stuff...
Moves 31 to 40  
  • W34 suggestions
    • rmsp: a) f4 to push the B33 stone low and build a stable white group here
    • Andy: b) M4. White's biggest asset is the weak black group black+square. Attack from a distance.
    • kanzenryu: c) c6 safety first
    • tapir: I would play c waiting for a chance later. But I propose d) l8 to read the commentary :) Andy: c6 is also what came to mind first for me, but I didn't like this continuation [34]
    • MrTenuki: H3, the one-space pincer, is another option. (kb, is this what you're looking for?)
  • W34 decision
    • kb: This move is a difficult one to decide upon. Andy's intuition is correct in that the marked Black group is what White needs to use in order to stay in the game. The direct attack L8 actually ends in gote with a correct Black defense. C6, F4, and H3 also end in White gote and then Black gets to play in the center first; this would certainly put White in an unfavorable position (I believe White is behind because the exchange black+circle/white+circle heavily favors Black). White needs to use the initiative. I think B33 is an overplay in that Black should use one more move to secure the center dragon and rely on superior territory to win this game, but it is certainly a difficult overplay to punish.
  • W32 decision
    • ThorAvaTahr: b) This move finishes the corner, unlike F16, which is open underneath. (don't count on any help from the 10-3 stone). Tenuki is inconsistent here, because a black move around E16 would be a sever attack on both the corner as the center stones.

Moves 21 - 30

Moves 21 to 30  
  • W30 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) m14 I don't know why, I just want to play at this point.
      • ThorAvaTahr: Maybe as captain I should not involve my self too much in the suggestion phase, however this looks like a nice opportunity for teaching. Kanzenryu, I do know why you want to play m14, you are still working on eyeshape for our group. But I would like to ask you the -perhaps retorical- question, which group is stronger, the white L12 group or the black L10 group? If you agree with me that the white one is stronger, than I would rather have you not reinforce our allready strong group ;)
      • kanzenryu: I take your point, and had already wondered about some sort of attacking move on that group from below. But my personal experience from my games is of so many big groups like this one that almost lived ;-) I would not have thought of our group as strong. Just an example of less experience and judgement.
    • Andy: b) C16. I think the usual keima at F17 is too soft on black in addition to extending in the direction of black's strength, nevertheless, white needs this corner or we fall behind too much in territory. C16 gives black the C12 invasion to worry about without giving black too much of an excuse to do anything immediately about it like an attachment at C15 would.
    • rmsp: c) to give our corner stone some options, reach out to our dragon, and aim at later invasion at c12. I think hoping for territory in this corner (with b or the low extension) is inconsistent with the 4,4 play and difficult given black's strength to the right.
    • kanzenryu: We probably should make a move...
  • W30 decision

ThorAvaTahr: b) I think Andy's idea here is ok, since we cannot get sente here anyway it may be best to try to get either a big corner or a fight on the other side. If we extend to 46, after black 42 we cannot answer at 33, since it gives black ideal shape after he plays 84. But we do not have a nice alternative option for 33.

  • W28 suggestions

kanzenryu: a) q13 working on eyeshape.

Andy: b) C12. helps W26 group, extends in the direction away from black's iron pillar B25-B27.

tapir: I seldom see similar positions in my games. I propose c) (R7) to unsettle the black group. Threatens connection underneath. If black connects against it, the forcing moves agains this connection should be enough to settle easily. It may still be a slack move, but thank god I'm no captain.

rmsp d) let's keep our head out.

  • W28 decision

ThorAvaTahr: d) Still not exactly what i was looking for, but good enough, let's be ahead of our enemy

  • W26 suggestions

tapir: a) L12 should work together with B24. Looks awful to ignore the shoulder hit, but that's our punishment i guess :)

Andy: b) Q13 I like a), but I'm going to suggest b) attaching to the black stone to settle the white group locally. In conjunction with W24, the white group is almost alive and white can get back to the main game. Running out with this group does not appeal to me because white is going to play a lot of dame while black destroys the top and gets influence over the rest of the board. The downside to attaching with b) is it pretty much eliminates any residual aji in the upper right corner. I don't think tenuki is an option for W26, even though I really love Bill's proverb.

kanzenryu: c) L11 another option to continue towards the centre.

kanzenryu: Let's have some more suggestions for the white team. New members feel free to join!

kanzenryu: We should probably make a move soon or the game will bog down enormously. It is only a teaching game after all (especially if we lose!)

  • W26 decision

ThorAvaTahr: a) I was waiting for more suggestions but they didn't seem to come. This move tries to get out without reinforcing black's stones.

  • W24 suggestions

kanzenryu: a) o14. Try for some eyespace, head towards connecting at the top, push into what could become a black moyo.

Andy: b) L11. I think something has to be done with the three white stones. Attaching on top of B23 is a shape-making defensive move. Although black gets stronger, since the black stones can already cross-under it's hard to harass these stones effectively anyway.

kanzenryu: Come on White team, we need more suggestions!

rmsp: how about c) L12 to keep pace with black, but not strengthen

  • W24 decision

ThorAvaTahr: a) Here I found a difficult choice. However, I do not want to attach to the black group, making it stronger, since it might still be attackable. Secondly, I will never run with a keima, since it leaves a cut. I chose a) because it makes some shape, although not my personal choice. I do not feel it is much of a reducing move though.

tapir: Oh, i forgot to propose P13, like to hear a comment.

Andy: I like P13 better than O14. I think O14 is slack. :)

tapir: I thought white has no other choice than attaching at L11. (Black L12 thereafter... or we will see soon.)

  • W22 suggestions

Andy: a) S3. The usual idea. Make a base. Since the goal was to settle these stones, we might as well settle them all the way. I think white is doing pretty well in this game so far.

  • W22 decision

kb: Good, only move again. Good shape inside your opponent's influence is necessary.

Moves 11 - 20

Moves 11 to 20  
  • W20 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: a) s2 Settle, settle! (Does this help settle? I'm not sure. All I know is that after W20 I'm going to render up another board...)
    • Andy: b) Q4. Make shape. Although if the stone at O5 were not in place a move at a) or a crosscut would give white nice sabaki possibilities.
    • kanzenryu: Black is really motoring lately. Maybe they prefer a faster pace.
    • rmsp: c) S3 feels more dependable. If b), we have to be able to respond to b S3 atari with P3, and I think that would leave us very thin.
    • unkx80: It is the Black soldiers that are making suggestions at a rather fast pace. When I make my rounds at the recent changes page, I thought, whoa, I better make a move.
  • W20 decision
    • kb: Q4 - standard move here. Makes miai of good shape in the corner and against N3. If at S3, B Q4 disconnects White from O5 and makes White play R2. R2 directly is very light shape and is also a good move - it's considerable.

  • W18 suggestions
    • a) Andy: R3. Settle this group.
    • b) tapir: I prefer a) but for an alternative i propose P13 once more. Now with W16 in place the tower peep doesn't work anymore.
  • W18 decision
    • kb: Only move - these stones are now thin and must be settled; The only way to settle these stones is to enter the corner. The corners are the biggest places on the board, so Black playing in the corner here after getting B17 in means that White's stones would be floating. Playing B17 at R4 instead might be premature, since White will take sente to play at B17. Jumping out with the two stones here is not good for White, because then Black's central weak group splits two White weak groups; not good for White. It's better to settle one directly and then worry about the other later.
      • kanzenryu: what is black likely to do? B19 at q4 worries me.
  • W16 suggestions
    • a) tapir: P13. Stabilizing on the outside and isolating the two black stones.
    • b) kanzenryu: N11. Jump again as if I knew what I was doing.
    • c) Andy: S16. probe to see what black's intentions are in this area
  • W16 decision
    • kb: Now that we're required to play here, another one-space jump is best. S16 makes a play at P13 impossible, because then the tower peep is severe. That being said, playing directly at S16 is too soft on B15 and B7.
  • W14 suggestions
    • kanzenryu: If black plays a pincer at the marked stone, should we jump towards the center or do something else?
    • MrTenuki: The one-point jump is an obvious first move to think about (cf. the one-point jump is never bad). But the question is whether Black would peep from above or from below with B15 to make White heavy and then attack the two White stones at the bottom right. Then again, it seems strange to me to invade with W12 only to sacrifice it immediately-- so I would consider attaching at b as another option.
      • Tapir: The peep would be a thank-you move imo because it removes the possibility to connect by attaching to W12 on the second line.
    • Tapir: Imho opinion the idea is each of us chose one (or if there is not enough contribution maybe two) moves and let the captain decide. If we propose half a dozen moves each, the soldier role becomes totally irrelevant.
      • kb: Please, everyone, make your proposed choice(s) for W14 below (in coordinate format), with a short reason. You can move the above discussion if you wish. I don't see any clear choices from the above except for one or two options.

a) P11 kanzenryu: original suggestion
b) Q13 MrTenuki: this can be followed by either a tsuke-hiki or a tsuke-nobi. (Note: the explanation was added later. Before he added this comment, the move was also supported by Tapir: "I say [b] just to have it in the option basket and to read the captain's explanation about it.")
c) O11 Tasky: I like b a lot... still, just to give more options I suggest a light jump at e, now W12 can be left as a sort of kikashi having already forced Black into a somehow cramped position from his shimari
d) Q9 kanzenryu: for symmetry of choice

  • W14 decision
    • kb: I don't like any of these options. Out of them, though, I choose P11. Playing on the side with more potential is bigger. To be fair, I don't agree with B13 either - personally, I think the B13/W14 exchange is good for White.
    • Most professional games with the shape on the right side have tenuki as the primary move - this is because professionals treat W12/B13 as a kikashi and then leave it. Think about it - you want to play in the biggest area. The side is not particularly urgent after B13 because both White groups are very light.
    • Attaching at Q13 is an overplay and strengthens Black in the corner, making it impossible for White to get anything in the future. Black will surely respond with an immediate cut (Q12) or with a bump (R12).

  • W12 suggestions
    • a) Tasky: since the wedge on the right side has miai for a base (C13/C7), I think it is best to tenuki from it an play the counterpincer at R11, that will be my proposal.
    • b) Tapir: I have no idea what to do on the right side, the counter pincer is proposed already. So this big enclosure (C14) with at least some pressure to B11. Looks better than 2 or 3 space extension corner-wise.
    • c) MrTenuki: I did consider both C14 and R11. I also looked at C12 and C13, but either could invite a cap followed by a 3-3 invasion. So, another option is to approach B11 from the bottom with a move around C8 as an inducing move-- if Black approaches the corner as a response, then White could try to settle the top in sente.
    • d) kanzenryu: Black will likely gain much of the right side, so playing at Q10 can start a reduction sequence.
    • e) kanzenryu: I am so clueless about what to do around the edge of the board that I'm just going to give Tengen as a possibility.
    • f) Andy: I think c) is the correct direction, but I prefer to hold back one space to make the corner more solid. Something like C7, black approaches the top hoshi, white makes a 1-space high extension, black slides, white blocks. Then black probably approaches from the bottom, but as discussed, that's not particularly interesting for either side.
  • W12 decision
    • kb: I chose R11 because I do not know what the best checking extension or enclosure on the left side is (perhaps no one has suggested it yet!). R11 has been played in a professional game before, although it was 103 years ago.

Moves 1 - 10

Moves 1 to 10  
  • W10 suggestions
    • a) M4 by tapir - we shouldn't fear to make proposals, someone else has to decide anyway. m4 looks natural. the usual counterpincers don't look good here imho.
    • b) kanzenryu s3 - compete for the corner, start a base.
    • c) kanzenryu d10 - ignore it all and tenuki for the whole left side. (Am I allowed to make two suggestions?)
    • d) MrTenuki: I actually did consider a counter-pincer at R11 since that leaves room for a two-space extension if Black jumps out, but that could result in quite a mess on the right side. So, among the three moves already suggested, I would prefer M4.
    • e) Tasky: I like R11, but since it's useless to make two times the same suggestion, I propose K17 (preventing a two-wing formation in upper right), just to give our captain more options
  • W10 decision
    • kb: I like either R11 or K17 here, but I'd rather have a peaceful game than a fighting one, so K17 it is. Professionals have played both in actual games.

Since this is a teaching game, I thought I should share why I don't like the other three moves.

      • S3: This move is not good as it makes W6 and W8 more heavy - after S3, W6 cannot easily be discarded. Besides, locally there is a better move.
      • D10: This move would probably be fine, and in an actual game may not make a large difference. However, Black will switch to the top side and take the big point there. An even exchange; however B9 does much to undermine White's sanrensei strategy.
      • M4: Pressing builds up strength, but then B7 would be ideally placed to limit White's thickness, and the strength would be wasted. It also might eliminate further opportunities in the corner.
    • kanzenryu: Thanks for the great explanations. I even understood some of it! (I'm struggling with why we would be worried about making stones heavy... if we think we might abandon the stones why would it have been good to play those moves in the first place?)
  • W8 suggestions
    • a) O4 by Tapir - taisha for a change, messing up with ten eyes studying the game is unlikely
    • b) kanzenryu S3 - plenty of room to run out later, so take a chunk of the corner with good shape.
    • c) MrTenuki O5: Another possible response to the three-space low pincer.
  • W8 decision
    • kb: W8 is a light and flexible move that will also allow White to get sente and play somewhere else; Black's follow-up is not so dangerous with such a light pincer. S3 will likely require a follow-up move, and is usually not a good move against komoku in most cases (better to attach). O4 - starting the taisha where Black has an extra stone is not normally a great idea, but I don't know the taisha well enough to tell you how that stone will aid in the fighting.
  • W6 suggestions
    • a) R5 kanzenryu: prevent two black shimari.
    • b) R10 MrTenuki: is another obvious choice.

ThorAvaTahr: Why is it obvious?

MrTenuki: My original thinking boiled down to this: "R10 is a natural extension point for Black's upper right shimari. With R5, Black might be able to get a pincer + extension." But after looking at the board again, I realized that I was getting the position mixed up with the orthodox fuseki, where Q3 is at Q4-- which would mean that there is no second shimari to prevent. In this position, the pincer + extension isn't quite as good as in the orthodox fuseki: R10 doesn't count as a pincer, and if Black tries a 2-space or 3-space pincer, the "extension" would be a bit too far from the upper right shimari.

ThorAvaTahr: Nice analysis!

    • c) K4 Tapir: K4 is possible as well.
  • W6 decision
    • W6 ThorAvaTahr: Prevents black to make two shimaris. This move is played by professionals, however the high approach is by far more common. As a general guideline if the opposing corner is black white would approach high, if the corner is white, white will approach low. Perhaps the idea of the high move is to be light and always have a quick way out. K4 and R10 are both not played by professionals. R9, however, has been played, but it is very rare.
  • W4 suggestions
    • a) D4 Tapir: is an obvious option
    • b) D3 kanzenryu: for variety.
    • a) D4 MrTenuki: Part of me is really tempting to be aggressive by approaching either B1 or B3, but I won't-- so D4 it is. And if Black approaches with F3 with the idea of playing something that resembles the Kobayashi fuseki (with the exception that B1 is shifted one line to the right), I'll play a pincer with W6.
  • W4 decision
    • kb W4 went to the star point. Actually, if you were to choose a komoku here, it's better to pick one to the left of W4, so the strong side points towards W2 and the weak side towards the strong side of B3. Otherwise, it encourages Black to make symmetry on the bottom and gain a strategic advantage.
  • W2 suggestions
    • a) D16 kanzenryu D16 Opposite the open komoku
    • b) Q3 tapir: b looks playable and offers a diagonal opening which would be fun. I don't see anything wrong with it, that's basically all I thought. And I want to offer our a captain a little variety (Opening is overrated anyway.)
    • c) D4 MrTenuki: D4 is another obvious choice. Then again, I personally like the idea of D16 because it prevents Black from playing out a Chinese opening.
  • W2 decision
    • ThorAvaTahr: Like this and continue or do we need a new diagram? W2 is a basic move, it very common in professional play. It has the virtue of flexibility. The other moves are also possible, at this stage no normal move can be really wrong. However, personally i would not like to play such that the open side(4th line) of my 4-3 stone faces the closed side of the oponents 4-3 stones.
      • kb: W2 is the correct direction; one line above is also OK


don't like it...  

I think white is behind in this diagram and B37 is too well placed.


Moves 31 to 40  

Any good for white?

Wu Ren Go 1 / White last edited by Dansc on October 10, 2009 - 17:39
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