Wu Ren Go 1 / Discussion

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This is meant to be a Wu Ren Go game as described on that page. Please put your rank and name by the color you want to play. Given the fluid nature of SL, I think rather than have a fixed captain and set of 4, if you are on the lower end of strength for your team, please suggest a move each time, and if you're higher, wait and choose from others' suggestions. Since this hasn't been done before (to my knowledge) we may change it up some as we go.

ThorAvaTahr: I suggest to make proposals with lowercase letters and set a maximum of four suggestions after which a captain must move. (the captain should also remove the suggestions so that the ohter team can start suggestions with lower case letters) IMO a captain can move earlier if he likes the first suggestion (improves speed when a move is forced). I suggest to put the captain bar at first dan.

ThorAvaTahr: Suppose the captain would want to play a 5-3 point and only three suggestions turn up, of which none is a 5-3 point. How long can a captain wait until he has to move? What is the desired behavior in such case? If we want this game to succeed I think it is necessary to make rules that emphasize speed, because by nature this game tends to be much slower than a normal ongoing game

MrTenuki: One possibility is to open two new subpages, "Black team's discussion" and "White Team's discussion," and allow players to "read ahead" in their suggestions. For example, Suppose that it's Black's turn to play B1 next. The Black team could list out their candidates for B3 given what they think how W2 would be played. This should speed up the game. (Of course, they're free to change their mind if W2 turns out NOT to match any of their predictions.) Obviously, this has to based on the honor system, as anyone can read the two pages.

ThorAvaTahr: It is an interesting idea and can help to speed up long force sequences (like a ladder :) )

kb: I second this - I have moved discussion to /Black and /White. Now you can discuss your proposed moves as much as you like. Honor system!

unkx80: This probably means one diagram will appear every single move. Would this be a problem?

ThorAvaTahr: I would propose only one diagram per 10 moves, and remove the previous suggestions from the board. The suggestions remain in coordinates in the remark by the team member that made the suggestion. This saves some space, but if that is not an issue perhaps we can make one diagram per move. Doesn't matter to me.

ThorAvaTahr: hmm visualizing future sequence does seem to require one diagram per variation... I don't know how to solve that

Tapir: I propose we should balance the teams as far as possible, and to save the proposals as coordinates (like alternative proposals: J11, N10, P3).

fractic: How about a separate page for move proposals?

Well I put my suggestion as a coordinate underneath, but if some other way seems better, I can move it :) The nice thing about a separate page is it allows for longer form discussion about why certain suggestions are good or bad. But It also means flipping back & forth between pages or duplicating the board diagram.

ThorAvaTahr: We need more people! :)

jvloenen: I like to join a team. As my rank equals the captain bar, the rules state I should be (another) captain. With the current player list, and the captains/soldiers balance this doesn't make much sense to me. Any problem if I make suggestions too?

tapir: I guess it's not a problem at all (either way). Besides - there are no assigned captains yet. Just the player deciding on the moves should be some minimum level and stronger than those who made the proposal usually. Always waiting for a single player - who may be on holiday or so - won't work in a wiki anyway.

I am afraid herman is very busy with some organizing duties for the EGC2009 right now. It is possible he will not be able to move very often. Perhaps you should take on the captain duty for now. Or maybe Kb or I should switch teams.

unkx80: I might join the Black team as a captain. Officially 5d attained in 1996, now much weaker. However, it is not my desire to make many moves, and I would like to see more kyu players joining either team.

kanzenryu: By the way, what is the komi for this game?

ThorAvaTahr: I would argue 6.5 for white

tapir: I thought komi is at least 9, no? :) Eh, we used 6.5 in ongoing games as well.

jvloenen: With the first moves, some players did "support" suggestions done before. So I wonder: is it the idea to suggest the move you think is best? (Which can be a move suggested before. We can even force a move if we all suggest the same). I think suggesting as many alternatives as possible would be a better approach.

Herman: In some situations, such as defending against a vital atari, or playing out a particular joseki variation where there are no branches, I think it would be rather pointless to force people to come up with alternatives to the only move :-)
So I think having many options is good, but if all the players agree on a single move, then that is probably just the only reasonable move. So I think we should encourage suggesting alternative moves, but not force it.

kanzenryu: Suggestion for captains: when editing the main page to play the move that got the most votes be careful to put an informative comment. Otherwise at the end of the game nearly every one will say "this move got the most votes".

ThorAvaTahr: it is very early in the game, all normal moves are good, so it is really a matter of personal favor. I have more comments in the teams page though.

unkx80: The captain has the right not to choose the move with the most votes. However, as ThorAvaTahr said, most normal opening moves make little difference in terms of utility value, therefore captains find it easiest to just follow the majority opinion. I guess, if you are to ask an professional whether B3 is better played at the 3-4 point or the 4-4 point, he or she would just shrug off and say that they are equally good, without giving any concrete reasons.

emeraldemon: So I've suggested 5 moves now, and as a kyu player who only gives suggestions, I feel playing this way takes some of the pressure off compared to typical Rengo. Here I don't have to find the best move, only suggest a possibility. If my move is bad, probably one of my 3 team-mates will suggest a better one, and the captain won't pick my move. This is almost the opposite of a typical rengo, where (if I'm the lower ranked one) I'm afraid my bad moves will ruin my better partner's plans. Also I like how seeing the suggestions of each player says something, like when all 4 agree that a pincer is best, even if they don't agree which pincer :).

Andy: The big advantage of the WuRenGo is as a teaching tool. If the captain can not only pick the move, but also explain why other suggested choices are inferior, that will present a really great learning opportunity.

kanzenryu: Great to see the moves coming a bit faster now. Let's keep it up!

unkx80: I find that my knowledge of opening and joseki is quite lacking, therefore I sometimes cannot give very good comments as to why some of the alternatives are inferior. If somebody can do a better job here, please feel free to take over my position as the current sole Black captain. =)

tapir: Some more players would be really nice.

MrTenuki: This reminds me of another issue. Is the captain allowed to resign if he/she thinks that all of the suggestions for the next move would result in a certain loss? After all, the captain is not allowed to choose a move that has not been suggested.

(... Or does even a pass or resignation have to be suggested in order for the captain to choose that option? ;-)

fractic: I think there should be some consensus within the team before resigning. Just like in a regular rengo.

thanatos13: indeed, someone might have a crazy idea that just might work :P - To unkx80- don't fret too much about opening, our DDK can give the explanations. (jk, I'm sure you will do just fine.)

Tasky: may I join?

tapir: sure!

kanzenryu: We've gone ten moves, so here's a totally gratuitous rendering [ext] http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2783/ongoinggame7move10.png

Antone?: I've added myself to black, I hope you don't mind

unkx80: Sure, no problem, and have fun. =)

unkx80: In this coming week (2009 August 3 to 2009 August 9), I expect moves from the Black team will be coming in a bit slow. Herman is already away and busy organizing the European Go Congress; others soldiers are already off for this tournament as well. As for myself, I will be attending an academic conference that is held locally, so I won't spend as much time in front of a computer. Less soldiers means less choices for captains, and all the captains are busy as well.

kanzenryu: 20 moves have gone by already. http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7352/96552890.th.jpg [ext] http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7352/96552890.jpg

kanzenryu: I was thinking that as a weaker player something I've been looking for for a long time is a well commented game consisting of straight-forward moves. There are a lot of annotated famous and pro games, but these tend to have a lot of highly complex sophisticated moves that are incomprehensible to me regardless of explanation. When this game is over I think it might make a great learning resource if we re-edit it and put all the moves and comments together.

unkx80: Yes, but as a captain I also expect the soldiers to ask what they want clarified. They can ask questions along the way or at the conclusion of the game. Otherwise captains will mostly give generic high-level comments because it is simply impossible to explain every single thing in detail.

kanzenryu: We have reached move 30. http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4130/51210813.th.jpg [ext] http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4130/51210813.jpg

Dansc: I'm hearing some troubling comments that the White team is losing spirit! If you don't mind, I'll join that team to (hopefully) give them a healthy boost.

tapir: You're welcome!

thanatos13: thanks Dansc, hopefully the white team might think a little less to do some urgent joseki moves. when you said "Troubling comments that the White team is losing spirit" that is indeed troubling. As each and every one of us has a Sai in us, losing him/her is like losing a piece of you. Well, if we can help, just give the word.

The Big 40

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7968/16230368.th.jpg [ext] http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7968/16230368.jpg

Herman: I love these pictures, really nice!

Reuven: How about making several simultaneous games instead? It might not speed up individual games but would sure provide some more interesting situations :)

tapir: Just start it.

kanzenryu: I have tried to start an annotated overview (I've done about 25 moves) of this game for beginners at [ext] http://eidogo.com/#1sEXgDuf Instead of using lots of variations (which I think beginners find overwhelming) I've gone for just marking points on the board. Any comments?

kanzenryu: White is toast. http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1477/wurengo1whiteresigns.th.jpg [ext] http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1477/wurengo1whiteresigns.jpg


Move B13

Move 13  

unkx80: B13 was played at a, but kb says that he doesn't agree with this move, and I think I see why too. So a better move for B13 is to play elsewhere? And if B13 is to be played locally, should it be played at b instead?

Move 37

Move 37  

unkx80: At move 37, both Black and White players suggested the tower peep at B1. White has many options, and the sequence shown here is just one possible sequence. Basically, since Black has cut White, the B1 and B3 stones become key stones which cannot be sacrificed, and thus Black has no good answer to W8.

ThorAvaTahr: Honor system? are you spying on us :P

unkx80: ... don't know why I have the impression that being a teaching game, all discussion is open to everyone. -_-

I shall recuse myself from this game, and let Herman take over.

ThorAvaTahr: Haha, omg, that seems excessive. Please continue!

thanatos13: I doubt excusing yourself from the game is in anybody's best interest, imbalanced teams are the last thing that we want. Come to think of it, where did Herman go? His tesuji thinking is very high class (so is his skill in general)

unkx80: Okay, I'll continue to play. But yeah, I think Herman makes a better teacher than I do, and I do wish that he makes more moves. =P

Herman: Heh, well thanks for the compliments guys. I'll try to make more moves :-)

ThorAvaTahr: Ehm, so also Herman has been spying... Hmm should we agree to be allowed to look at both teams pages than? It can help teaching purposes, however it seems to be less of a game in that way. For competitiveness it is bad.

Andy: I routinely read the pages of the other team. Is that bad?

unkx80: In this case, I guess we continue with all discussion being open to everyone. I think the players 1 dan and below are still interested in playing the game.

BTW, I don't think the White discussion affected my moves much, and I don't deliberately hide any information from the White team in my commentary.

tapir: he, it is a wiki, of course i am reading the black subpage as well. i never ever thought it may be different. (i even made our white design a little more similar to the black one.) i don't feel like this changed my proposals so far, lengthy arguing with "hidden sequences" = aji left in different places may change it, but i got the feeling we are not going to explain those stuff beforehand. because it is more fun if we have still something to think about and don't take our proposals from subliminal suggestions.

what is the level of play so far? compared to the other ongoing games?

Herman: I haven't actually read anything much on the White subpage, I just noticed Andy asking a direct question (per his edit summary) about a position that was already played, so I answered it. Like unkx80, I have no objection to anyone reading anything I write on the black subpage. I will not use my comments to show lengthy hidden sequences, because I think that goes against the spirit of the WuRenGo. If I went around saying things like "Well, proposal b is an interesting suggestion, but I won't play it because there is a specific invasion sequence a-b-c-d-e-f in this position which would be spoiled", then what is the point? The soldiers would either constantly be suggesting moves that I actually thought up, or if they thought them up themselves, would still feel like they were just aping my comments. Instead, I try to keep comments on the level of "strong/weak groups", direction, open area's, proverbs, etc.

Herman: As to the level of play, I think it is higher than the other ongoing games, but that is pretty logical with the dan players picking the moves. Generally I think the level of suggestions has been very high. I think that the fact that player have to articulate the thoughts behind their suggestions is really helping with that.

kanzenryu: I'm waiting until the end of the game, but I plan to go through the comments of both sides and create a commented SGF file that shows the thinking of both sides.

sh: Are further WuRenGo games planned? I'd love to join in then.

tapir: you can join the ongoing one as well... + there is no reason not to have two games at the same time.

emeraldemon: I think the number of high-ranked players is the limitation. Although it might be fun to start a WuRenGo along a lower level, i.e. the captains are SDK and the soldiers are DDK. After this finishes, We can definitely start another, but I'd like to take some time to analyze the finished game.

FireclawDrake: The white team seems to be moving rather slowly. I'm going to go over there seeing as I really want this game to be moving, it's an excellent teaching excercise!

unkx80: There has been indications from the White team, including the captain, that this game should be ended. I am fine with it too - this game has been moving far too slowly for my personal liking. What do you guys think?

If you want to start another wu ren go game, my suggestion is to lower the captain bar. This is where the bottleneck is.

Antone: I'm enthusiastic about this format and would like to get another game going as soon as possible. Would 5k sound about right for the new captain bar ?

tapir: In my opinion, captain bar should be flexible (best two or three active players), with a 5k bar there would be too much captains.

Dansc: Perhaps we should just collect a list of interested people and decide the captain bar once we know how strong people we're going to get? By the way, was the idea to exclude dan level players altogether, or just to let people of very different strengths take turns in captaining?

kb: I propose renaming all of "Wu Ren Go" instances to "Captain Go", as I think it's a better format and using a more descriptive term of the type of game is better, especially for those who do not know any Chinese. Besides, I came up with "Wu Ren Go" so does that allow me to change it? (I'm not a librarian so I don't have privileges for renaming.)

Wu Ren Go 1 / Discussion last edited by on January 23, 2015 - 09:09
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