HolIgor: White 200. Forced
dnerra: Black 199: Whew, now I am afraid of spoiling either unkx80's or Dieter's uncommented plans... Maybe this is what you intended, unkx80?
HolIgor: White 196 is a two-point move. I cannot see a serious threat in the region of 195.
Dieter: 195. No comments till after the game.
DaveSigaty: White 194; OK, whatever was available elsewhere for 193 is still available for 195 :-)
HolIgor: I believe that 194 has to be one point higher. This might give an extra point.
dnerra: Black 193: Enough discussion -- let's keep it going :-)
DieterVerhofstadt: The move I want to make for 193 is one I can't make without consulting the other "Blacks". If it were me to play, I'd resign. If someone feels the need to go through to the end, then I'll play along. Note: I count the difference as being 10 points on the board.
HolIgor: White leads by a little but not that much. Did you count the captured stones? Black captured nine while White took two. I estimate White's lead as 2.5 points. I believe that such games are played to the end. Anyway, it's rengo. Anybody can make it an exercize to determine the largest yose move regardless of the score. Dieter: Oh, I forgot about the captured stones. That still makes my count 8.5 for White. OK, I'll play.
dnerra: Well, it's certainly become very difficult for Black, but you never know... :-) By the way, looking back through the endgame so far I think there is a single outstanding move: White 174 - excellent job HolIgor! This may have sealed victory for White already.
DaveSigaty: White 192 - I do not know what is largest but I think that this is good enough. It is a large gote play that seals the win for White.
unkx80: Black 189: I shall be a busybody a bit and make a move, to get the game going a bit. Basically I feel that there is a need to connect, but before connecting...
HolIgor: White 188; I feel a need to get a point in the center.
dnerra: Black 187: No choice.
DJ: Black 185: I had reckoned this should be a good way to keep everything connected...
By the way, I tried to investigate a lot of variations stemming from playing Black 181 at a, b or c, but I couldn't find anything nasty enough...
I believe now they're all vanished, so I ask the pundits, was there any sequence to harass White a little?
HolIgor: Let's have some fun yet, ne? Kyu players are irresponsible.
HolIgor: White 182: A push.
Bill: My sentiments exactly. :-)
Nonny: (commenting) Very interesting, so far. I'd play but I don't want to lose the game for Black, so I'm enjoying watching.
HolIgor: White 180. I play very solidly. I think that making life by two groups would give too much to the opponent.
dnerra: Black 179: I'll give it another try to get it going again :-)
HolIgor: Isn't there any interest in finishing the game? It is a very close game. Either side can win.
HolIgor: White 178: That's kind of obvious.
dnerra: Black 177: Is it Black who has to come up with something now?
DJ Yeah, Dnerra! Come up!! With something!!! Bash'em!!!! With sparkling tesuji!!!!%%%
;-))) 'Cause I have no brilliant ideas... just normal moves come to my mind.
By the way, who else is playing Black here?
HolIgor: White 176. Other people playing for White here, Bill and James, registered their presence in the postings but did not make a move. Perhaps, it is already too boring. But I promised to play yose for White, so I jump.
AvatarDJFlux Black 175: Grunt! I said I want to be in the records!
DaveSigaty: I am not sure that I agree that White needs to stretch here; it seems to me that Black has difficulty giving the komi now. But I like this move! It is a lot more interesting than anything that I was thinking of at this point.
dnerra: Thanks both for the criticism and the support, Avatar. :) I'll play with the team myself with Black173. :-)
AvatarDJFlux Black 171: Well, I'll bite even deeper, and if I enter the records as the duffer who blew the game for Black, at least I'll make history... ;-)
Dnerra, after having dared to criticise your swiftness, now I feel like supporting your play!!!
Bill: White 170. Happy, happy, joy, joy!
BillSpight: White 168. Bite this. ;-)
By the way, I corrected the numbering. We skipped 159 - 160.
DaveSigaty: Black167, I'll bite.
HolIgor: Trying to save a stone.
dnerra: Black 165: Even an idiot...
HolIgor: White 164: Atari!
DaveSigaty: Black 163: How does the saying go, "even an idiot connects..."? Well as the other saying goes, "if the shoe fits, wear it". :-)
HolIgor: It seems to me that White 160 is half played. Please, finish the move, whoever did it.
dnerra: Black 159: This seems bigger than preventing one of the monkey jumps.
Bill: I think so, too. :-)
HolIgor: 156: White has to defend here. I have bad feeling about the decision I've taken with White 152. I would like to discuss it more. I had to give up possible sente and a monkey jump, It was big.
Dieter: With 155 I prepared for the crosscut. It's a rengo of course, but what do the others think ?
HolIgor: I think that crosscut was an interesting option for Black. Actually, when playing 132 I knew that the honte move would be at 157 but I could not supress the greed. If White loses that will be because of such small mistakes.
dnerra: (I played B157): Sorry Dieter, I did not even realize
the possibility of the cross-cut. I was just contemplating the choice between Black 157 and Black d. Hmmm, can't White resist at 7 if
Black cross-cuts at e? (And continue at White d if Black insists by playing at Black f.)
Bill: I think that, had White connected at move 152, the threatened monkey jump in the bottom right was bigger than White 152. Since the connection was gote, that is enough to show that it was bigger.
But that aside, HolIgor, you deserve credit for putting White back into the game. :-)
Dieter: I think 152 and 154 were miai and that (because) their sum is bigger than 151 + 153. But I understand dnerra's feelings. Now, let's see if we can throw more stones into White's territory without following them up #:-7.
Bill Spight: White 154. Banzai!
dnerra: Well, I think Rengo-players are always very swift :-)
I think I can at least explain Black 151: I tried to count carefully, and came to a different conclusion than HolIgor; namely that White has to defend at Black 153. (This is not to say that I'd be convinced I am right there :-) ). On the other hand, White c might well be sente against the big black group.
Now, whenever there is just a vague smell of double sente, I get pretty nervous, or you can call it swift... So I hoped to exchange Black 151 for White 153 and then come back to play Black a.
Actually, getting pretty nervous about double sente is not such a bad idea if you want to improve your yose!
AvatarDJFlux: When I started to play go I read somewhere that strong players are swift (or something like that). Here it seems to me that Black is being somewhat over-swift... ;-)
Black has played three moves (or sequences) in a row, all of them quite big, and all of them went unanswered by White, who thus turned those moves into gote plays. Black didn't even play any of the follow-ups of those moves: all of them still quite big but definitely gote. I wouldn't be able to play like that in an actual game, and maybe that's why I'm still 3k.
Letting White capture with 152 just gives me the creeps, after all those moves played in her territory... At least two or three moves weren't even answered on the inside, becoming thus an outright loss... Therefore I decided to play 153, for the sake of being consequential... ;-) (even if Black has some other play that would probably be sente). I hope such a move would also give the right-side group some breath...
Black should teach White that she cannot keep ignoring all his threats and get away with it... ;-))))
P.S. A stupid question: Wiki keeps the count of stones being captured during the game for the final score, doesn't it?
HolIgor: I have to assume responsibility for the play. It is too big to be accepted silently. As far as I can tell the right side is 21 points for two moves. The left side is seven points. All White has to do to stay even is to find a four-point move. Discussion, please.
HolIgor: This is just interesting. You can't decide between two points, so you propose White both of them for the right side :) One has to do some serious calculations.
dnerra: Black 151: I still don't know whether a or b is better. So I leave it to someone else to decide :-). Also, maybe I now hit a sente point with my third try -- but I guess Bill will prove me wrong again :))
Bill: Actually, Black 151 looks big to me. :-)
HolIgor: White 150. People recommend estimating the score at least two times during the game. I've never done it in the middle game or even at the start of yose. I am going to try. Please, help me with good advice. Ongoing game 2/W 150 The Score
Bill: White 148. A move I was wondering about for White 146.
HolIgor: W146 was a difficult choice but I wanted to play it if nobody else plays. I believe that White is doing wonderfully.
White's prospective territory here has an open skirt. I could not find any move that would defend from both sides. White had to play two gote moves to defend it. At the same time Black's attack is gote. Now Black can't stop because then White would take all the territory with one move.
But the game is still very close.
Dieter: Black 147. Territory destroyed.
DaveSigaty: White 146; Black can escape from one side or the other. This way looks better to me. White wants sente to play in the upper right.
dnerra: OK, then I can come back to Black 145.
HolIgor: White 144 - obvious.
dnerra: Black 143 - let's see first how (if?) White wants to reply here.
Nonny: dnerra, I've seen the light. I believe :-)
dnerra: Nonny, I think we have exchanged arguments. We won't force you to believe the group is worth more than 30 points. But its true :-) And I think Dieter and James explained the meaning of Black 135 well.
Nonny: Respectfully, dnerra, that doesn't make sense--first of all, the position we were discussing was after 135/136, so there are nine black stones and White is now on the second line there too. Second, several have argued that Black can survive anyway, even without the first move in this area. In either case, White is going to have to continue to play stones in this region to try to capture Black. Would a shodan truly think Black 135 was the correct move at the correct time?
Dieter: Well, a shodan made it. It was a simple way to secure life in sente, making two points. If White doesn't answer, a follow-up at '136' is very big. If White answers, the group is now clearly alive - as others have explained. Maybe there are other ways to live in sente but 135 does not create damezumari: it actually relieved that group from it. Nonny: Dieter, I meant no disrespect by my comments and I appreciate you taking the time to explain to me. Thank you. Dieter: Please don't apologize. We are all senseis around here, including you. Thanks for questioning my move.
dnerra: Nonny, it's really more than 30 poits. Below I marked with x all points that will probably not become territory for White if Black is alive. These are 14 points: 20 pts for capturing 10 black stones, plus a few points of territory that Black would have made.
Nonny: After 136, White has descended to the second line on both sides and Black has nine stones here. There is no way that this represents "more than 30 points". 18 for the stones, yes, but there aren'tt 12 more points on the side.
And allowing White the eye-stealing tesuji is no big loss. If white plays it, Black simply responds at b to make life.
JamesA: 135 actually prevents White playing an eye-stealing tesuji later:
White plays at 1, and Black can't answer at a. Therefore, Black 135 makes an eye in sente and ensures life for the group. I think it was a good move. You don't really need to worry about losing a liberty here if you make an eye as a result! Remember that damezumari refers to a shortage of liberties, not to any move that entails a loss of a liberty.
The territory gained from killing the group would actually be more than 30 points. You have to remember that it isn't just the captured stones, but also the points that will be dame, or taken by Black in the actual game. Every point that Black would have made, and that White makes instead is worth two points (depending on counting method). Trust me, it's over 30 points. If White was able to kill with a move after 136, it would not be necessary to capture the stones and fill territory, as the surrounding white group is alive anyway.
Nonny: Black 141. Doesn't 135 remove one liberty of the whole group? And it isn't 30 points, it's more like 25 or less as it stands. White has to fill its own territory to capture. A quibble? Let's see :) In addition, you think it is secure anyway. You are probably correct.
dnerra: Black 139. Don't think about this move! :-)
JamesA: To continue the discussion about the upper right group: I don't think White 136 is sente against the upper right group. How does White kill this group if Black doesn't answer 136 (which he didn't)? Also, why is Black 135 damezumari?
Next point, Black should not give up this top right group for sente. If White kills that group it will be worth around 30 points - there is nowhere that could compensate for a loss like that. Sometimes you just have to give way and allow your opponent sente. However, as I've already said, I don't think 136 does threaten to kill.
Nonny: Let's discuss the upper right black group. Black 135 (damezumari, by the way) forced 136 which is sente against the whole group. After this, Black must defend at a or thereabouts to secure the life of this group, but alas, in gote. In addition, White still has the yose force at b. If Black wants to play in this area the first move should be played at a to secure absolute life. While admittedly gote itself, Black 135 at a would be one of those one-move perfect shape fixers that would, for example, allow Black to descend at d in sente.
Locally, 135 at a would then make subsequently playing the game's Black 135 not only sente but would also make White 136 gote, which Black could ignore, keeping the yose c in mind. So, my argument is that Black 135 is mistimed...we should end this sequence in sente, not in gote, even if you have to start with gote to do so.
Therefore, because 137 at a would be gote, Black should give up the entire group if sufficient compensation can be obtained elsewhere. This is what the sequence starting with Black 137 sets out to do.
If you don't feel that the follow-up accomplishes this, then it will be I who have lost the game for Black.
HolIgor: 138: It seems to me that White can get several points here before defending. If I am wrong I have lost the game for White.
Nonny: 137: An absolutely forcing sequence starts which could cause White troubles. The key move in the sequence is the eighth (fourth move by White).
HolIgor: 136: Defending at last.
DieterVerhofstadt: 135 Eat this.
BillSpight: White 134. Banzai!
dnerra: 133. Maybe this time I hit a sente point?
Dieter: 131; All my appraisal for White 128. Black should in my humble opinion have attacked the lower side before playing 121. White 128 is skillful defense while playing big yose. Maybe White can win after all?
dnerra: Although I am certainly not insisting that my Black 121 was right, I may point out that it may well be the case that both 121 and 128 were right (Black 121 seems larger than for White to connect around White 122 with White 128). Also, Black cannot really expect to play first both on the lower side and on the left side, can he?
AvatarDJFlux Black 129: As 125 was a forced answer, I feel entitled to play again... ;-)
It may be gote, but it keeps seven points of territory even if the white monkey jumps from 128, with respect to a black block to the left of 128, white connection at 129 and black sagari to the 1-2 point to live.
And White starts to have some cutting points in the boundaries of this territory...
Am I wrong?
HolIgor: 128: I don't like to defend.
StormCrow Black 127 -- White 126 was atari, Black 127 captures the white stone previously at the marked point.
AvatarDJFlux Black 125 The more I play the more I feel hopeless at this game, and especially so at the yose... so I have one question.
Black 121 is the move that in a real game I would have played without thinking. I thought it is double sente but then I counted it as five points (am I wrong?) and thought: is there anything else bigger, even taking into account the value of double sente?
I see one move (and I won't say which) that looks to me bigger, and with an even bigger follow up...
But again, I may be wrong!
dnerra: Black 123.
HolIgor: White 122: Since Black insists that this is a double sente.