Fujitsu 17 Yi - Wang (version 88)

   
  • Fashionable opening?
  • Upper right corner?
  • Top?
  • Fuseki continues?
[Diagram]
Moves 1  

HolIgor: This seems to be hot at the moment. Yi Ch'ang-ho (white) and Ch'oe Ch'eol-han (black) play this in their continuing fight for the supremacy in Korean go. In the second round of the Fujitsu Cup, played 2004-04-12 in Tokyo, Wang Lei risked to try to contribute his 2 cents. Yi does not do well with this in Kuksu and Kiseong, so Wang Lei could hope to hit where it hurts, but Yi must have analysed this a lot.

Dave: Yi and Wang played 3 weeks earlier in the 3rd CSK Cup. With colors reversed Wang played W4 in the lower left and allowed Black to play a mini-Chinese. Score = B+R.

HolIgor: W2 is active, white tries to fight for the initiative from the first move. W4 avoids the mini Chinese with which black did very well recently and, of course, this is a quest for initiative from the very start. B5 is the toughest pincer that Ch'oe likes to play in his games with the Stone Buddha.

19 games in www.gobase.org, most of them recent and black won 14 of them.

Todays news, Ch'oe won another game with the same first five moves by 2.5 moku and secured Kiseong.

Rich: I presume Yi is white? Possibly silly question; wouldn't W4 a line higher be more in tune with the influence-based W2?

HolIgor: Why, of corse, a high approach is possible here as well. But they play this variation every other game recently. I mean Yi and Ch'oe. Black wins.

Dave: The high approach looks premature here. It is difficult to initiate an influence-based strategy when White has posession of only one corner. The low approach is much more common.

Dave: This W4 seems to be Yi's preferred attempt to steer away from the mini-Chinese (see Kuksu 47 Game 4). Based on the results he has had it does not appear that his problems handling Ch'oe can be solved by simply switching fuseki.

HolIgor: Of 19 games in the database with the same first five moves, 6 went along the line of W6. People tried everything including immediate joseki in the upper right corner. But it seems that pros prefer to play tenuki at this point. Perhaps Yi played W6 as a probing move to see what kind of pincer black would choose before deciding what to do in the upper right.

Of 6 games in the database black won five. Does it try to reverse this statistics?

Dave: I am not sure that statistics mean anything here because so many of the games feature the same players. W6 seems odd to me. It offers Black the ideal pincer B7 so that afterward the development of the upper right looks easy for Black - easy in the sense that Black can choose lines that make B7 a good play. Meanwhile White is divided (upper right versus W6) and therefore it is less likely that White finds the time to play in the lower left.

The oddest thing about the whole line to me is that we can imagine B5 as a new, more aggressive approach by Black to compensate for the higher (6.5 point) komi. Then we would not really expect White to counter with more aggression in turn (e.g. W6). Yi has stayed away from the simple jump to a in the figure but I do not understand why. Is this part of the current Korean style?

HolIgor: B7. In most games black played a pincer in this corner. Mostly a high two space pincer similar to the one in the right top corner. The situation becomes complicated.

HolIgor: W8 is a joseki move. Black chooses B9.

Problem 1. What are other common answers?

Dave I think there are no other answers worth considering here. B9 is perfect for connecting B1 and B7.

HolIgor: A push W10 finishes this diagram.


[Diagram]
Rin - Ch'oe 2004-03-21  


Dave Three weeks earlier (in the 3rd CSK Cup) Rin Kaiho played White against Ch'oe Ch'eol-han. Without the exchange of approach move and pincer in the lower right they played a normal "Meiji Title" joseki in the upper right. W7 here is the usual play. When Black jumps toward the edge with B8, White pushes with 9 and Black has to answer at 10.

[Diagram]
Rin - Ch'oe 2004-03-21 (cont'd)  

Dave: Play continued as shown. When White plays 1 the corner is safe because capturing the marked stone and playing the hane at a are miai. Black turns away to play 2 on the right and the 3-6 exchange on the top are quite normal. White used his sente to play in the lower left and Black naturally enclosed the lower right.

Yi's push at 10 in the game we are studying changes the situation in the upper right corner. Once White pushes Black out along the top, Black's jump to the edge becomes more severe because Black need not give White the opportunity to capture the marked stone in the Rin - Ch'oe game. We can see why Yi took the opportunity to slide out along the top. Could Black have prevented this?

[Diagram]
Moves 27 alternative  


Dave: What if Black had continued to push with 27 at B1 here? If White answers at 2 and Black jumps to 3, the push at 4 achieves nothing. If W6, Black hanes and connects on the right in sente. After this Black a threatens to kill the corner (in the same way as shown below) so White must answer again. Is this enough compensation for making White stronger in the center and leaving a gap around B1?

[Diagram]
Moves 27 alternative White hane  


Dave: What happens if White switches W6 from the block to the hane and connection here? Is the aji on the right bad enough for Black that he must be worried here? Is there a killing tesuji? (Obviously Wang did not think so but it doesn't mean that we can figure out why not :-) If necessary can Black play b and expect White to answer again at c?


[Diagram]
Moves 11-20  


HolIgor: After black retracts with B1 white has to think about connection. Yet the connection should be shapy. W2 tries to achieve this. See here for analysis.

Dave: B1 looks heavy to me. There are few examples of it in the databases but its record looks poor. Is Black trying too hard? Or is it that with the marked stone on the board already Black can afford to play harder?

HolIgor: B3-B7 are joseki stuff. Gobase contains another game form 1973 in which the same corner variation was played. White won then. Black could have chosen a hane instead of B3. Was B3 from the game too bad already?

[Diagram]
Moves 21-30  


HolIgor: My impression is that this is very good for white. White got a corner and the floating group in the center is quite strong.


DJ: Hullo everybody! I've been enjoying these analysis a lot, when just the other day a Korean friend of mine brought me a Korean monthly baduk magazine, where this game is commented. Unfortunately I cannot read it, but I can watch the figures...
I can copy the diagram as they are, and we can see if they suggest us anything...
Now, the first diagrams offered are an alternative for W4 (white 24): a NidanBane! (But maybe this is just to confute such a possibility...)

[Diagram]
Korean baduk magazine 1  


[Diagram]
Korean baduk magazine 2  


DJ: Does it look better for Black than in the game?
Looking hard between the Korean characters, it seems to me that the magazine suggests that if White plays W3 at B4 in the first diagram, then Black plays at W3, White plays a, Black b.
Again, if White plays W9 at c (B2 in the second diagram), then Black plays c. I cannot decipher the following comment, but it seems dangerous for White, doesn't it?
More to follow...

Dave: Very interesting! Consider this...

[Diagram]
Comparable situation  


If Black had answered White 28 in the game with the attachment B1 here and White had replied with W2 (analysis of other replies to this is below), then B3 - B5 would have created a situation very similar to the alternative from the magazine review. Which is better? To my eye the shape of the White stones in the center here seems slightly better than in the alternative above. On the other hand there also seems to be less aji in the 1-space gap between the two marked Black stones than in the 2-space gap in the alternative. A toss up?


[Diagram]
Moves 21-30 (repeated)  


Dave: I wonder how Black felt about B7. It seems to make the marked stone misplaced. If the approach in the lower right were made after B7, Black would certainly choose something other than the marked stone, no?

HolIgor: B9. Black has definitely to do something to settle this group and the approach is reasonable. Another options would be limiting the white's corner group with a and turn to the centre with b. But as I undertand black was not sure if a was sente while b seems to attack quite a strong group.


DJ: Following Dave and HolIgor two comments above, here's two other diagrams from the Korean Baduk Monthly about possible alternatives to Black 31 (played in the game at the marked point in the diagram (hopefully) just above (and below):

[Diagram]
Korean magazine alternative for Black 31  


[Diagram]
Korean magazine alternative for Black 31  


DJ: It seems to me the first diagram shows Black attacking ther strong (?) white group, while in the second Black seems well settled. Does Black have missed a chance here?


Dave: Since Black decides to answer W10, it seems to me that B9 is a miscalculation? Since attaching at B1 in the next diagram has almost no impact on White, this seems like a loss to me. If Black attaches immediately at a what will White do?

[Diagram]
Alternative B 29  


Dave If White plays from the outside, B3 looks severe to me. In reply to W4, B5 threatens the corner (see below), right? If White plays at 9 instead of 6, then after the block and connection Black at 6 will allow Black to turn against the center White stones.

[Diagram]
Alternative B 29 cont'd  


HolIgor: B5 from the other side leaves less aji. Just kidding. But recently I am repriminding myself for losing some points in the situations like this when the main point is the same yet there is a small difference in points between two moves.

Dave: Hmmm... You may have a point there :-)

HolIgor: W10 was surprising. A solid move but on the second line?

[Diagram]
Moves 31-40  


HolIgor: W2 seems to be a clever move. If black makes a double kakari in the left top corner, he is asking for trouble with his top side group. White seems to capture the initiative.

HolIgor: B3. Black defends once more. It seems that he misread a lot by not pressing white down as Dave shown in the previous diagram. But recently I played a game in which my opponent made about 5 mistakes like this. I, certainly, won. But 10 points only. That is an indication of how I play.

HolIgor: W4 - W8. Since black is already strong here white tries to get the corner and prevent the counterattack. Interesting that this is considered more than the empty corner or a jump out in the lower right.

unkx80: Allowing Black to play the double approach at W8 looks severe.

HolIgor: B9 is a move in the empty corner. Taking the star point black, perhaps looks at the pespectives to create some framework at the bottom.

HolIgor: W10. The approach is perhaps from this side because the left is not interesting and easily reducable. White looks for the ways to erase rather than construct. White has two corners now and rather good options to convert the center into a mire. The problem is right bottom.

unkx80: Looks like W10 is aiming at a, since with the black+circle stones, jumping out from the bottom right corner is not very interesting. I guess the next Black move is a pincer.

HolIgor: Yes, you are probably right. This thing in fuseki is my blind point. Now I clearly see that if black just extends on the left side then white has a good double hasami in the lower right corner. So, black has to play a pincer attacking white stone and creating a framework in the lower right quarter.

[Diagram]
Moves 41-50  

HolIgor: I don't know what considerations determined the choice of this particular pincer B1. There are several points around that seems to serve the same purpose.

Dave: The most common pincer in pro play is the low one-space but in this case since White has the ability to press Black down with a on the right it looks like a high pincer makes more sense. The two-space high is the next most common choice and probably makes the most sense. Black does not want to play further away because, again, the lower right may get pushed down. The one-space high is of course an alternative.

HolIgor: W2. As black creates a great sphere of influnce in the lower right quarter white has to compensate with a fight. Of course, white has a stone right in the heart of black's shere of influence. It is not a problem to get a small life there provided white plays there first. So, what plan could white chose to reply to the pincer. The pincer is high and quite far. So, jumping out is not that interesting. If white jumps out and then plays a pincer at the bottom the game would become an unpredictable melee. Actually, it will become an unpredictable melee anyway as every game of go becomes, but, probably, it is not time.

Taking the corner by playing san-san is not interesting since the black's sphere of influence would become very large. So, white plays a double pincer.

HolIgor: B3. I was taught to lean on a stronger stone and here black chooses to lean on a weaker one. I don't understand the plan here.

Dave: If we look in the databases we find that playing against the stronger stone is clearly favored when Black plays the 3-space low pincer (although much less so in modern Go than in classical Go) and slightly favored with the 3-space high pincer. On the other hand, playing against the weaker stone is more frequent by about 10-1 with the 2-space high pincer. I assume that this is because the narrower pincer means that Black can not expect sufficient compensation from forcing the strong-side stones into good shape before turning back against the weaker stone.

HolIgor: At W6 the decision about the joseki was made. White decided to be content with small life.

Dave: I think this is probably the most natural choice here. If White enters at b and Black answers at B7, then White is going to end up with a low position in both the bottom left and the top left (see marked stone). This is probably not attractive. On the other hand, White hardly ever pushes at 7 unless there is White strength to the right that will support an attack on the Black pincer stone. That is not the case here.

[Diagram]
Moves 51-  

HolIgor: W4 is a fast move, yet in my opinion it is too thin. White formation on the left side is full of holes, the group at the bottom is attackable which means that 4 is effectively played very close to the black's thickness. I think that in situations like this white's marked stone has to be treated lighly and the enforcement of the top should be thicker. So, I think that W4 had to be closer to the top. But Yi knows better, of course.

Dave: Playing W4 closer to the top would be overconcentrated. White has already played the marked stones in the upper left, strengthening the corner. White has to be ready to allow Black to invade at a. This is now virtually a one-purpose move since it has only limited impact on the corner. Because of the cutting point at W6, the invasion at c is impossible at present and will always be small/slow in the future regardless of whether White cuts at W6 or Black connects. The play at W4 looks natural to me with a good balance between the side and the White stones in the center.

[Diagram]
Moves 61-  

HolIgor: The variation till W2 was expected. As Dave explained above white has carefully prepared an invasion point on the left. My problem is that I do not feel this. In my opinion at least one of the groups surronding the invasion point has to be thick. I don't have that impression in this case.

HolIgor: Now black has sente and has to choose either to invade or to make something about the right lower corner. What direction is correct there? Black has a pincer at place. He can choose to extend high on the lower side. White will live small in the corner then. The problem is whether the space at the bottom is an open skirt. That means whether black will have time to close it. That is a good piece of land. Another plan would be to take the territory in the corner and chase white stone to the centre.

Karl Knechtel: Is a shoulder hit at a possible, i.e. do Black's stones on the side help any? My idea is to let White live against the side while pushing on the fourth line, and then follow up with a centre move somewhere around b - creating a large moyo and attacking the marked White stones on a large scale. (Of course White will live easily, but it should reduce his options...) I am not sure whether to move b closer to the centre to be more secure against keshi, or further to the left to cap White's left side more aggressively.

HolIgor: I think this is an interesting idea. Can you try to give an expected variation?

HolIgor: B3. Black chooses to take the corner. This move intends to make white stones heavy nerai-ing (with a plan) to make some territory while attacking.

Dave: It seems to me that Black has a problem here. White would love to play around c as a follow up to the exchange in the top right. At the same time such a play would either extend support to stones escaping from the lower right or reduce Black influence gained by containing White in the lower right. In the absence of other stones the continuation W at d, Black at e, White at c is one of the traditional joseki involving a tenuki after a 3-space low pincer. Here the other Black stones already played may force White to play more lightly but the support from the upper right means that the Black moyo is not as threatening as it may seem.

HolIgor: How wonderful. Now we know and understand better.

HolIgor: W4. A move I can't do usually. White concedes the corner provided black crawls along the second line, which black would not do. Help is coming to white from the direction of c.

Dave: It is a reasonable idea here I think. As mentioned, White doesn't want to become heavy here. Meanwhile the marked Black stone means that it is not easy to achieve anything by plays against the pincer stone (attaching for example). Sometimes White will play a knight's move below 4 in answer to 3 but I think White does not want to risk a fight here. The Black stones in the area are all strong so fighting would not seem like the right idea.

HolIgor: B5. Cuts the support off and forces white to live in the lower left region. At the same time puts some pressure on the white group in the centre. Now the question is how will white settle.

HolIgor: W6-W10. This seems to be a one way street. White confine black in the corner and create a situation when to stong attack from the outside can threaten the black corner group.

The problem here is why black does not want to play a lot of nozoki to make white heavier.

[Diagram]
Moves 71-  

HolIgor: A little profit for black. Now black can capture 3 white stones but that is peanuts at the moment and is left for later. White's wall came closer to home.

[Diagram]
Moves 81-  

HolIgor: B1 is a move I do not understand. Actually, I don't understand anything in this corner. I don't even know how to read such things. Playing a lot of nozoki to make white heavy seems reasonable.

B1 seems to create a miai. Black threatens to connect at a. If white cuts the connection then black has to capture a stone, make eyes and B1 would be useful to get something at the bottom. This plan seems logical but I don't have a feeling that this is the best black can do.

[Diagram]
Analysis  

Dave: If we consider a more direct approach like this B1 - B5, it does not seem that White is without resources. If White manages to play a there is a threat to connect to the lower left. Similarly if White plays b followed by something like c it looks like it both threatens B3 and connecting out to the center White stones. I assume that White had such considerations in mind when giving up the three center stones in order to build a strong position there. But in reality I can not claim to know what they were really thinking, they look so much deeper! :-)

[Diagram]
Analysis 2  

Dave: Also what happens if White does not connect? This does not look like Black making progress. Connecting out via a or b look more likely now than in the previous diagram and B1 has become a thank you move. The play at c is probably about 10 points in gote?

[Diagram]
Analysis 2 alt  

Dave: And if Black tries to change the order of the peeps...


HolIgor: W2 in the game is a threat to the black group in the corner. It is important at this point to determine the status of that group. Let this be a separate page: Fujitsu 17 Yi Wang Lower Right Status?. Without knowing the solution of this life and death the speculations are pointless.

HolIgor: It seems that the study on J group gives ko as the answer. Ko is too good for white. In order to win the ko and live black has to allow white to moves in a row. With that white would easily setle the group outside. Therefore, black plays B3. White continues to W6. Almost settled. B7, W8 exchange finish this part of the game. B7 is big, W8 is safe. With the next move real fun starts.

Dave: W6-W8 settle the shape so well here that I wonder whether B1 was a miscalculation by Black. If instead B1 was a clever inducing play because B3-B7 is better than W2-W8, I am indeed impressed. Unfortunately I have no way of telling :-)

HolIgor: Real fun starts at the new page: Fujitsu 17 Yi Wang Chuban Part 2.


Fujitsu 17 Yi - Wang (version 88) last edited by AvatarDJFlux on May 22, 2004 - 17:10
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