|Table of diagrams
Rin - Ch'oe 2004-03-21
Rin - Ch'oe 2004-03-21 (cont.)
Rin - Ch'oe Variation on Move 27
Rin - Ch'oe Variation on Move 27 (White hane)
Korean baduk magazine 1
Korean baduk magazine 2
Moves 21-30 (repeated)
Variation on 29
Variation on 29 (cont.)
|Index of sub-pages
HolIgor: This seems to be hot at the moment. Yi Ch'ang-ho (white) and Ch'oe Ch'eol-han (black) play this in their continuing fight for the supremacy in Korean go. In the second round of the Fujitsu Cup, played 2004-04-12 in Tokyo, Wang Lei Sr. risked to try to contribute his 2 cents. Yi does not do well with this in Kuksu and Kiseong, so Wang Lei could hope to hit where it hurts, but Yi must have analysed this a lot.
Dave: Yi and Wang played 3 weeks earlier in the 3rd CSK Cup. With colors reversed Wang played in the lower left and allowed Black to play a mini-Chinese. Score = B+R.
HolIgor: is active, white tries to fight for the initiative from the first move. avoids the mini Chinese with which black did very well recently and, of course, this is a quest for initiative from the very start. is the toughest pincer that Ch'oe likes to play in his games with the Stone Buddha.
19 games in www.gobase.org, most of them recent and black won 14 of them.
Todays news, Ch'oe won another game with the same first five moves by 2. 5 moku and secured Kiseong.
Rich: I presume Yi is white? Possibly silly question; wouldn't a line higher be more in tune with the influence-based ?
HolIgor: Why, of corse, a high approach is possible here as well. But they play this variation every other game recently. I mean Yi and Ch'oe. Black wins.
Dave: The high approach looks premature here. It is difficult to initiate an influence-based strategy when White has posession of only one corner. The low approach is much more common.
Dave: This seems to be Yi's preferred attempt to steer away from the mini-Chinese (see Kuksu 47 Game 4). Based on the results he has had it does not appear that his problems handling Ch'oe can be solved by simply switching fuseki.
HolIgor: Of 19 games in the database with the same first five moves, 6 went along the line of . People tried everything including immediate joseki in the upper right corner. But it seems that pros prefer to play tenuki at this point. Perhaps Yi played as a probing move to see what kind of pincer black would choose before deciding what to do in the upper right.
Of 6 games in the database black won five. Does it try to reverse this statistics?
Dave: I am not sure that statistics mean anything here because so many of the games feature the same players. seems odd to me. It offers Black the ideal pincer so that afterward the development of the upper right looks easy for Black - easy in the sense that Black can choose lines that make a good play. Meanwhile White is divided (upper right versus ) and therefore it is less likely that White finds the time to play in the lower left.
The oddest thing about the whole line to me is that we can imagine as a new, more aggressive approach by Black to compensate for the higher (6.5 point) komi. Then we would not really expect White to counter with more aggression in turn (e.g. ). Yi has stayed away from the simple jump to a in the figure but I do not understand why. Is this part of the current Korean style?
HolIgor: . In most games black played a pincer in this corner.
Mostly a high two space pincer similar to the one in the right top corner. The situation becomes complicated.
HolIgor: is a joseki move. Black chooses .
Problem 1. What are other common answers? Dave I think there are no other answers worth considering here. is perfect for connecting and .
HolIgor: A push finishes this diagram.
Dave Three weeks earlier (in the 3rd CSK Cup) Rin Kaiho played White against Ch'oe Ch'eol-han. Without the exchange of approach move and pincer in the lower right they played a normal "Meiji Title" joseki in the upper right. here is the usual play. When Black jumps toward the edge with , White pushes with 9 and Black has to answer at 10.
Dave: Play continued as shown. When White plays 1 the corner is safe because capturing the marked stone and playing the hane at a are miai. Black turns away to play 2 on the right and the 3-6 exchange on the top are quite normal. White used his sente to play in the lower left and Black naturally enclosed the lower right.
Yi's push at 10 in the game we are studying changes the situation in the upper right corner. Once White pushes Black out along the top, Black's jump to the edge becomes more severe because Black need not give White the opportunity to capture the marked stone in the Rin - Ch'oe game. We can see why Yi took the opportunity to slide out along the top. Could Black have prevented this?
Dave: What if Black had continued to push with 27 at here? If White answers at 2 and Black jumps to 3, the push at 4 achieves nothing. If , Black hanes and connects on the right in sente. After this Black a threatens to kill the corner (in the same way as shown below) so White must answer again. Is this enough compensation for making White stronger in the center and leaving a gap around ?
Dave: What happens if White switches from the block to the hane and connection here? Is the aji on the right bad enough for Black that he must be worried here? Is there a killing tesuji? (Obviously Wang did not think so but it doesn't mean that we can figure out why not :-) If necessary can Black play b and expect White to answer again at c?
Dave: looks heavy to me. There are few examples of it in the databases but its record looks poor. Is Black trying too hard? Or is it that with the marked stone on the board already Black can afford to play harder?
HolIgor: - are joseki stuff. Gobase contains another game form 1973 in which the same corner variation was played. White won then. Black could have chosen a hane instead of . Was from the game too bad already?
HolIgor: My impression is that this is very good for white. White got a corner and the floating group in the center is quite strong.
DJ: Hullo everybody! I've been enjoying these analysis a lot, when just the other day a Korean friend of mine brought me a Korean monthly baduk magazine, where this game is commented. Unfortunately I cannot read it, but I can watch the figures...
I can copy the diagram as they are, and we can see if they suggest us anything...
Now, the first diagrams offered are an alternative for (white 24): a NidanBane! (But maybe this is just to confute such a possibility...)
DJ: Does it look better for Black than in the game?
Looking hard between the Korean characters, it seems to me that the magazine suggests that if White plays at in the first diagram, then Black plays at , White plays a, Black b.
Again, if White plays at c ( in the second diagram), then Black plays c. I cannot decipher the following comment, but it seems dangerous for White, doesn't it?
More to follow...
Dave: Very interesting! Consider this...
If Black had answered White 28 in the game with the attachment here and White had replied with (analysis of other replies to this is below), then - would have created a situation very similar to the alternative from the magazine review. Which is better? To my eye the shape of the White stones in the center here seems slightly better than in the alternative above. On the other hand there also seems to be less aji in the 1-space gap between the two marked Black stones than in the 2-space gap in the alternative. A toss up?
Dave: I wonder how Black felt about . It seems to make the marked stone misplaced. If the approach in the lower right were made after , Black would certainly choose something other than the marked stone, no?
HolIgor: . Black has definitely to do something to settle this group and the approach is reasonable. Another options would be limiting the white's corner group with a and turn to the centre with b. But as I undertand black was not sure if a was sente while b seems to attack quite a strong group.
Dave: Since Black decides to answer , it seems to me that is a miscalculation? Since attaching at in the next diagram has almost no impact on White, this seems like a loss to me. If Black attaches immediately at a what will White do?
Dave If White plays from the outside, looks severe to me. In reply to , threatens the corner (see below), right? If White plays at instead of , then after the block and connection Black at will allow Black to turn against the center White stones.
HolIgor: from the other side leaves less aji. Just kidding. But recently I am repriminding myself for losing some points in the situations like this when the main point is the same yet there is a small difference in points between two moves.
Dave: Hmmm... You may have a point there :-)
HolIgor: was surprising. A solid move but on the second line?