TG53 1 to 70

    Keywords: Ongoing game

Moves 61-70

Komi 50.5 points  

mat Black 60: Thanks for your analysis of the corner, it now causes me really a big headache when I look back at Black 42 and Black 50. I considered the following hane underneath when I played Black 48, but due to an error in reading it out I got afraid of it.... what a pity! Black 60 seems natural to me, I considered a as well - as it seems to secure the corner, but I was afraid of White 60, White b and White c. I suppose you will go for the 3-3 invasion next, but at least I will be able to build a wall underneath you.

Dave White 61: White 59 is unlikely to make sense if I follow up with a 3-3 play. When White enters at 3-3, one of the points is to try to use defects in Black's position to make forcing moves that build some kind of shape. White 59 "forces" Black to patch the gap in his one-space jump. In most situations (maybe this one too :-) it is a thank you move that Black is happy to answer. It can only make sense together with other white plays on the outside.

mat Black 62: At d may be natural, but if I continue just to defend I will lose the game, so here's my next experiment

Dave I am interested in your assertion that you will lose the game if you continue to defend. How do you assess the score at present? Where are the big moves threatened for both Black and White? TG53 After W61

Dave White 63: this is supposed to be a teaching game so I choose to set you a problem with this rather vague 63. Whatever you choose in turn for 64, I am interested in your thoughts behind it.

mat Black 64: Isn't this miai? I threaten either to capture White 61 or to connect to the marked stone. This plan may be an overplay in view of my strength but I feel that the komi is nearly reached with my losses in the upper left.

mat OK, now I've just seen "TG53 after W61". (Probably I should have waited with Black 64 and see if defending is better. Anyway I don't withdraw the move and will spend some time on your question now.)

Dave White 65: I will respond to your move before looking at TG53 after W61 :-) Your 62 and 64 look too thick to fool around with. I have to strengthen my framework. It is worth considering what White would have done if you had played 64 at 65. It looks like I would have been unable to stop you from breaking into the upper side. White 63 may have been a mistake on my part.

mat Black 66: I am happy to hear that you won't 'fool around' ;-)

Dave White 67: This seems inevitable...

mat Let's make things complicated...

Dave OK!

mat Hey, why don't you do what I think you are going to do? Maybe I need a new plan ;-) However, Black 70 was obvious...

Dave The trouble with expectations in Go is how often our opponents are so inconsiderate as to play other moves entirely. In a related way, "inevitable" and "obvious" moves may not be. Your Black 68 was something that I had not considered when I carelessly played White 67. My inevitable move might have been better one space to the left. White 69 is a kind of probe. When you answer at Black 70 you take away one liberty of my lower center group (clearly a minus for me). But at the same time you leave behind a cutting point at e which I may be able to exploit later. This obvious move may not have been best. The right side territory that you protect is smaller than my center that you would like to break up.
Captured stones  

Moves 51-60

Komi 50.5 points  

Dave White 51 Let us see what you make of this.

mat I hope that works...

Dave Funny, I am hoping the same thing about mine :-)

mat OK, Black 50 might have been wrong. However I'm not going to die!

Dave Let's settle things a bit and then take a look back at the corner. White 55.

mat Black 56 can't be wrong.

Dave White 57: unfortunately 56 is almost certainly wrong. Black has been tricked here (or has tricked himself). White 57 is very big; White has blocked on both sides and the corner is not alive yet.

mat Hmmm, I thought I made my mistake earlier... If I had played 57, you could have enclosed me below and instead taken the upper two stones. Is that a big difference? Anyway: Black 58.

Dave Let's go back and look at how the corner played out: TG53 Upper Left.

Dave White 59, the upper left has stabilized and White has sente. Kitani Minoru's teacher, Kubomatsu, used this maneuver against a black one-point jump to expand his moyo in a three-stone game played when Kitani was 13 years old. I have always wanted to try it. :-)

Captured stones  

Moves 41-50

Komi 50.5 points  

Dave, if this game would be continued by two players of equal strength (and with normal komi), White would win, wouldn't she? At what time did Black lose the advantage of her two stones? mat

Probably it might be instructive for me if you (or anybody else) could give a short analysis of the current situation. I find it very difficult to learn when action and feedback (in terms of territory/life outcome) are separated by lots of moves. mat

Dave: OK, let's look at the situation - TG53 After Black 40.

Dave: Meanwhile back at the game... White 41 (too blunt for a teaching game?)

mat: Black 42 (Initially I was aiming at the outside, let's see if I will get there in the end...)

dnerra: Is it allowed to kibitz a little? Here at White 42 I would almost automatically play at c. I don't like to be shut in! And if White does try to keep Black in after Black c, he would get horribly cutting points (imagine White d, then Black can choose among Black 9 or Black 43; of course, White might reply at White 43 himself; then Black should still get better shape than White with a hane at either head of the two stones). But maybe Black 42 is a good alternative to make life quickly? Say, Black 42 is to make life, Black c would have been to make shape?
mat I'm bad at fighting, so I don't know if those cutting points were valuable to me. I thought that if I lost contact with the corner, I might have to worry about life for the next 10 moves which would give White the opportunity to direct me whereever she wants. Let's hope I can escape with Black 48...

Dave White 43 OK, let's see what I can do to prevent it :-)

mat Black 44 you must have expected this...

Dave White 45 it was the most likely...

mat Black 46 so was mine... See you in two days, I'm leaving for a short trip!

Dave In a position like this you should also consider playing 46 at a or b. If Black wants to push downward from the corner, the cutting point at b in the game is a problem. White 47, White closes the open skirt at the top.

mat But a is gote - can I afford this? (I am willing to sacrifice 46 and 44 if I can break through to the lower side)
Dave If White plays 6 and then tenuki after Black connects, Black is happy to capture one stone. The second time White has no choice but to connect so Black is absolutely alive in the corner and it is his turn. Normally this type of hanging connection is sente. This is one such case, White can't really afford to play tenuki.

mat Black 48 Hmmm, I'm in an adventurous mood today. I can't read it out to the end, but I feel that the possibility to connect either near the border or to help a breakthrough in the center is a good thing (miai?). Will you go to f? I think g is a good response to f. Probably you will go to 9 - then f may be my response.

It is interesting to play that way. The second time I look at a situation I change my mind very often!

Me too. It is often disappointing how much we do not see/think about in a normal game!

Dave I will try White 49

mat Black 50 (as announced)

Moves 31-40

Komi 50.5 points  

White 31 - Good luck! You may be trying too hard here (then again I may die :-) That's all for me today so read it out at your leisure. Dave

Black 32 - Do I have a choice? I don't want you to cut at a with atari, so I can't let you get Black 32, so I have to get it instead. I am weak at reading (the other player often chooses moves I didn't think of) so I like this sort of "mental shortcut"...

I think you will continue with b and so far I think I go on with c.

Unfortunately I will not have internet access during a journey that I start tomorrow. Maybe we manage one more move until I leave, then there is a break of two weeks. Sorry for that, I'm looking forward to continue.

Bill: Mat, that's twice already that you have indicated a lack of choice for your move. I suspect that your game would benefit from considering more choices for your plays. Even if a move looks obvious, you may profit from asking yourself where else you might play, both locally and over the whole board. :-)
mat: Thanks, Bill, any advice is appreciated, I want to learn. However I don't know how to make use of this advice. You think I should consider tenuki more often? I remember that I played tenuki (in other games) in situations where I shouldn't, so this is not a systematic error rather than a lack of insight. Can you name some principles upon to judge when to respond and when to tenuki?
As to the local alternatives: I thought about them, however my mind got somehow screwed up by trying to read out to the end. I don't know if I'm too lazy, probably I just need some more intuition (based on experience)? (I'm not bad at intuition outside of go.)
Bill: Well, if you thought about alternatives, I guess I read too much into your remarks. :-) But in general, it seems to me that kyu players often miss good plays because they didn't even see them. They did not think about throwing stones away, they did not look for dual-purpose plays, they did not consider the whole board.
As for tenuki, I say, when in doubt, tenuki. Sure, you will make mistakes, but when in doubt, you are going to make mistakes anyway. The reason for my advice is psychological. Most people, myself included, tend to get overly involved in the local situation. To the extent that I have been able to find errors by pros, failing to tenuki is a common one. Even they are not immune. Besides, if tenuki is wrong, the refutation is likely to be impressive, whereas, if it is not, then the refutation just looks like the next big play, and the error may go unnoticed.

White 33 - I will play toward the corner. I am a little busy tonight with the family so I may not be able to play again if you answer. Why don't we stop here and you can take the situation away with you on your trip, think it over, and decide what looks good to you next? There is no hurry. See you when you get back. Dave

Black 34 - I will defend the corner (the Internet is everywhere!) I think I might be able to stop you somehow if you go further up, so the lower side might be more important...

White 35 - I will descend here, I think it keeps more options open for me. Dave

Black 36 - OK, tenuki (I'm home again) mat

White 37: Welcome back mat! How was the trip? Dave

Thanks, the trip was great, we visited friends in the south of France who own a vineyard and a castle.

Black 38: In this phase of the game I usually start to guess a lot. Should I have tried to connect 36 with other black stones on the right? should I make an invasion into the upper left corner / upper side? I don't know really how to judge the value of those moves...

Dave: Judging the value of the moves at this stage is pretty much a matter of imagining a continuation and considering who will end up controlling what parts of the board. This is not easy to do well. Study can teach you something about what are reasonable expectations. Experience playing games will do the same. There are different opinions on how much you should plan in the opening. I believe that you have to become good at setting some kind of appropriate plan for yourself. At the same time you must begin to look for and understand the plans your opponent is trying to put in place against you. How long any particular plan survives depends a great deal on how your opponent reactes. After your opponent responds to each move that you make, you should be considering whether your plan is still valid. Has the response frustrated any of the goals that you had? Did the response leave weaknesses in your opponent's position that allow you to make a more aggressive plan? Has your opponent aimed at weaknesses in your position that are more urgent than your original plan so that you have to back off (at least for now)?

White 39: I receive you from the outside. What plan do you have or what plan will you create? :-)

Black 40: I've wanted to play in your corner for some time. I can't see if d or e is better. I decided to go for the outside since that may work with Black 38 and Black 36 (although I have no precise idea how). All I'm trying to do here is to destroy some of your territory...


What do you think about the exchange in the bottom? Black is overconcentrated on the left, has peeped at a bamboo joint and even tried to cut it. As for White, he has made an empty triangle.
Real fights involve trade-offs. How do you assess these? -- Bill

mat: But I made trade-offs - I gave White the corner while I built a wall around. I let the invading white stone have access to the middle while I built a wall between the white bamboo joint and my moyo on the right. These trade-offs seem reasonable for Black. What else could I have achieved locally? Shall I thread to catch White in the middle? I doubt that this will work (I still can try later)
Another problem: A point that is big for you may not be big for me - I simply do not know enough about how to make use of moyos. Once a 1 kyu player told me I play like "Lucky Jack" (title of a famous German story: Jack is a foolish (but happy) young man who makes subsequent exchanges that finally end up with nothing). So I decided to stick to my strategy and go less for exchanges.
According to shape: what is so bad with the peeped bamboo? White's concentration is as high as Black's - but - Black is outside! Isn't that good?
Bill: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had not made trade-offs. :-) I intended to refer to the trade-offs in shape. Each player made bad shape in the fight.
Better Black Shape  

Instead of peeping and trying to cut a bamboo joint, the keima (marked) extends into the center and threatens White's group. White still has the empty triangle.
Both of these diagrams have the same net number of stones. Which is better for Black?

mat: Computers are everywhere in the world, so here I am again... Bill, I think I must learn something from your shape-discussion, however I don't get the point: if I hadn't played Black 16, white would never have developed a bamboo joint, so why can I learn from your diagram?
Bill: At the time I said that Black 16 was dubious. So was Black 20. Shape provides a heuristic for judging the results.

Moves 21-30

Komi 50.5 points  

White 21 - I will connect. However, you need not continue as below if you have changed your mind in the mean time (although it may speed things up it may also defeat the purpose of a teaching game). Dave (ps: Bill, I didn't have the nerve to claim the generic "Dave" for my very own. But since you did it for me what can I do except accept, thanks :-)

OK, I changed my mind. Normally I try not to follow the hints of others (although I read them carefully), since I want to learn rather than win. But Black 22 is "my" move. I may have chosen it anyway. Looking at the stones on the board is different from thinking over it ;-) However I think it is good for a teaching game to say what I have planned. So: I think you will connect at a (3) and I think I will connect at b (4). I'm a bit afraid of your possibility of playing at b (4), I can't overlook what will happen then (probably I'd go to c).

White 23, Black 24, White 25 - OK, let's play it out and see what happens. I will continue by attaching at 25 to see how you will react in the corner. Dave

Black 26 - I'm weak at josekis but that looks reasonable...

White 27 - One continuation

Black 28 -

White 29 ...

Black 30 ...

Moves 11-20

Komi 50.5 points  

White 11 - I chose tengen partly as one of the key points between the white and black moyos under construction. However, I am also thinking about the usefulness in supressing/invading Black's right and bottom as mentioned on BQM 386.

Black 12 - OK, I'll try to play wider. Black 12 is good for both wings and as far as I can judge, it somehow makes Black 10 look better. Furthermore, it should help me in the center, too. I thought about playing a as it attacks White and makes my influence better, but I wasn't so sure if it would really be sente, so I chose Black 12 (Black 12 isn't sente either, but I feel that it is bigger)

I think 12 is an nice idea (b might be even nicer :-) I rate it Black's best move of the game so far. After White 11 the play at a is less interesting than before. I would probably answer but the benefit to Black from the exchange would be more or less erased by 11.
unkx80: Personally, I would play 12 at k. I view 11 and k as some sort of miai.
JamesA: I don't think I would play Black 12 either. Black 10 was a relatively solid extension, but developing on a smaller scale than White. Black 12 continues to play in a moyo-competition style, and White gets the chance to reduce first. What about a play at z, for instance, to reduce White lightly whilst thinking about an invasion at y or in the corner later? I certainly think Black needs to take the initiative after White 11.

White 13 - Let's see what you do with this. Of course I am trying to punish Black 10 and the availability of the shoulder hit is one of the things that I didn't like about it. Dave

mat: You call it my best move so far? Is there a problem with Black 2 to Black 8? Well, I'm glad you liked Black 12.

Not a problem but there is no original thinking there = unrated! :-)

Black 14 - I don't have much choice, have I? I'm not "brave" enough to play tenuki and c might give you the opportunity to push against my moyo in the lower left and at the same time locking up your huge moyo, so Black 14 is the only move I can think of.

One problem is that 14 is overconcentrated in relation to Black 4.
Bill: Indeed. One of the joys of the close extension is that you do not have to respond at Black 14. :-)
Some alternative plays: c, 10, h, i. :-)

White 15 - trying to play quickly and lightly, looking at the center or the bottom depending on how you play. By the way, if I had played at 16, what would you have played? Dave

Black 16 - OK, I will try to cut. To be honest, I don't know what I would have answered to White 16, probably tenuki (when in doubt...) Is my Overconcentrated shape a result of Black 10 or could I have played Black 14 elsewhere?

I think that a play around e would have been an interesting idea against White 16. I would have made myself a little heavy and you could expect to push into my moyo if I try to run. On the other hand you could solidify the right side if I had to live along the bottom. I think that a play around d was worth considering against White 13 originally or even an immediate cap around e. Black should not mind having White push against Black 10 (either along the top at 14 or downwards at c since there is no good way for Black to develop this stone anyway. Dave
Bill: How about Black 16 at e? Compare Black 16 and Black 18 with White 17 and White 19. Which stones are working? :-)
dnerra: Hmm, when to tenuki? I don't think you should have tenukied if Black plays Black 15 at 16. Sure, the two white stones can't be attacked very efficiently, but simply allowing them to get a base looks too modest. Maybe something like Black at p or q would be fine? If White doesn't respond, I don't think she can treat the two stones lightly if you attack them with Black e. But then, I also agree that a tenuki to enter the top left somewhere around k would be an option, it's such a big play!

Black 18 - as expected

White 19 - The normal solid connection would leave behind a black splitting play at e. This 19 looks at the relationship with the stone on tengen. (It is bedtime in Tokyo, you can choose your next play at your leisure. See you tomorrow!) Dave

Black 20 - If you connect, I might play at f.

unkx80: I would rather play at f directly, if I were you. Alternatively, g might be a better choice. =)
mat Hmmm, isn't f gote? But the longer I think over it - g looks better, indeed. (However, it's too late...)
Bill: How about the peep at j?
mat: You mean Black 22 at j? I thought over it, too and maybe I will change my mind ;-) But initially I havn't planned to continue with Black 22 at j as it is sente (White could go between Black 22 and Black 20)
Bill: No, I meant Black 20 at j. :-)

Moves 1-10

Komi 50.5 points  

I start with 1 at the 3-5 point. It is an asymmetric move. In a two-stone game I expect that you will want to play first in the open corner so that I will then have the choice of playing again to exploit my first move. Dave

Hmm I've never played with that much komi. I think I should play just a little bit more defensive to make advantage of it - just as I would have done with more stones. I can't think of any more specific strategy right now (perhaps later). I have just read your page about the 3-5 point ... Anyway - as expected: I play in the open corner. I like the 4-4 point. I've got used to it in handicap games...Mat


TG53 1 to 70 last edited by MrTenuki on July 9, 2006 - 01:29
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