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fractic: I got the feeling that was too close. If black plays I think the result is better for black.
Harleqin: is wrong in other ways: it just defends the white stone, but White was first in this corner, so it's very, very slack. The normal aim for the 5-3 point is to pincer a move like , e.g. with 'a', or to press down with 'b' etc. and then extend to around 'c'. The result you show here puts Black clearly ahead, I'd estimate around 10 points.
Bill: I'd say 2-3 pts. :)
Herman Hiddema: is too close and should be at a, but it does not lose 10 points.
Harleqin: I think that White not only loses some points with the short extension but also with not attacking .
Herman Hiddema: may be slightly slack, but is also slack, I would never play that in that position without a pincer already in place.
Kokiri - I really wanted to play here as an alternative to as played for real, but didn't want to play 2 moves on the same board. Is this line playable?
fractic: I would say here is probably better then as in the game. Woudn't at be better though?
Dieter No I don't think so. Black can take easy territory then and White's cut will be inefficient.
Herman Hiddema: I think can do better, see next diagrams
Herman Hiddema I'm not sure is a good move. What do you do after ?
Options, IMO, in the next diagrams:
fractic: Black has the option of at though.
Herman Hiddema: Yes, but then you get exactly the same result as Dieters diagram, except for the fact that black has answered with instead of a, a clear gain for white, as she can now take the corner.
fractic: I realized that but it's still pushing from behind. It's still good for white.
Herman Hiddema: is pushing through, that's different than simply pushing form behind, as white is also cutting off a stone. But at would be terrible bad shape anyway, better to make a one point jump. I've added a diagram for that:
Herman Hiddema: For example, like this. Playing may be dubious though, perhaps white is better of playing tenuki.
Dieter: Looking at this diagram, I think a territory oriented Black player may play a as early as now. It's about 20 points in gote given the bad shape of the White stones and the aji of b. Given that this was White's first move corner, the result is at least balanced. I think I like the variation better, where Black's central stones float.
Anyway, I didn't spot the tesuji, so thanks for this.
Herman Hiddema: Hmm. It is awfully big isn't it? I have a bit of a blind spot for that sometimes, where I consider any move I can count the points gained as "end game", and ignore it too long :-)
So perhaps one of the next diagrams?
Herman Hiddema: True, black can treat he marked stone lightly now, and a move at c looks very attractive. Perhaps te3nuki instad of is indeed an option.
Herman Hiddema: True, but now at least white has sente to play c or thereabout. I think this may be reasonably even. White takes 10-12 points and sente, while black gets a lot of thickness.
Dieter: We're already converging largely, but c is hardly sente against the black group. Black might be happy wit d after all and e is more Black's than White's so the eye seems pretty safe.
Dieter I think was honte. The continuation of the alternative goes like this and the shape of the group is not splendid. is well placed and Black is floating in the centre, so I'm not so sure how bad the result really is for White.
Herman Hiddema: This variation feels slightly dubious, what is white's next move? a seems impossible, but b isn't very good either.
Anonymous: Although looks kind of funny, it left Black some weird aji in the lower left that a move like was really appealing for Black. Then, encloses the corner, which is something that I am addicted to =(
Anonymous: (Since I don't want to play too many moves, I am going to cheat a little =p ) If we look at this diagram, I think is kind of misplaced. (So where do I think is better at?)
ThorAvaTahr: does not seem right to me. It seems to hurt the marked stone (and it is not necessary to get ahead as in another common joseki). I think a is the most common joseki here.
Andy Pierce: I think you're right and after , the exchange is going to work out to be white pushing from behind. Not a major loss though.
ThorAvaTahr: In the common joseki white (a) could also be seen as pushing from behind, but I think that white does it so that she can obtain sente.
ThorAvaTahr: I think we should first continue for a few moves, but I have a comment about this move :)
Tapir: It is the only move for black imho.
Herman Hiddema: Will answer when this has been played out further :-)
unkx80: was played at in this diagram. I thought that can be played like this, settling the top side while gobbling up , and leaving behind a cutting point at a.
Thanks to the stone, a White move at b threatens to connect back with c, so it is not possible to kill the corner.
I would consider this a big success for White.
Andy Pierce: Well, () was my move, and I'm pretty sure I should have made the expected response to Dieter's kikashi at a, but it just seemed too submissive, a total gain for white. I thought that between white owing a move in the corner and the thinness of white on the top side that white would be too busy to take much advantage, but I overlooked the inability of black to block white's connection underneath (as pointed out by unkx80).
Dieter: I think all of , and should have been at a, really attacking White weak top group, while influencing the centre. If White flees to the left, her corner will affected and Black will be able to play a double purpose move or otherwise play according to the circumstances.
unkx80: Dieter, if is played at a, then White can play b, Black c, White d, linking up with the stone on the right and sealing Black in. Wouldn't Black be rather uncomfortable?
kb: I think should be at e, making a thick shape and threatening to attack the top and the right at the same time.
fractic: as played in the game creates some nasty potential in the corner around d.
ThorAvaTahr. I don't think it is necessary to protect here, and i don't like the way the protection is done. If it is sente, it doesn't mean it is good. My idea was to take another big point, for instance 77 below. There is no immediate danger of being cut, I don't believe white can actually play like below.
...the push from behind, of the game, really greatly helps white, i think.
After , white has two problems. The stones on the right are weak, and the lower right corner is weak. I like , which attacks black on the right, while preventing a moyo to the left. is strange, allow the Elephants Eye move of . I would prefer to lean on white below (eg attach on top of 62) in order to attack the stones on the right. After -, black is suddenly actually weak on the right. is a strange move, but is definitely the wrong reply, IMO. White should not allow black to walk trough a keima like that, so should be at . Black then makes exactly the same mistake with , which (after some exchanged moves) allows white to rip through the keima - with at a. at a or b would've been much better. After , the entire position is one big mess of ripped keima's :-)
unkx80: Anyone thought of playing at a? Because if Black gets to play at b as well, it affects the life and death of White's corner. This would make good discussion material. =)
I looked at it, but I did not really like this option.
unkx80: Hmm. If my reading serves me right, should be able to play at . No?
This is no good, because black needs to connect and then white can still live in the corner
Andy Pierce: for I was considering between a and b. If it can be made to work, I liked b, but I'm not sure black can successfully pull it off. Opinions here?
ThorAvaTahr: I was also considering them, although I had me best hopes on c.
fractic: I think playing a threatening b is very big. If white answers at d then black can play at c. If white defends at c the corner is not fully alive if black gets to play b so that would leave terrible adji. I was glad to be able to play at a.
ThorAvaTahr: Let me stress the advantages of c, if white answers on the outside we will get a big profit in gote (while the sacrificed stones still provide some aji) see below:
ThorAvaTahr: If white answers on the inner side, black gets less profit (still a lot) but in sente (perhaps w4 should even be at a):
Herman Hiddema: Another variation
Herman Hiddema: So white will have to play like this, and both will live
kokiri - this looks pretty satisfactory to white (from my, white player's eyes at least) - black can prevent white from getting further into the middle territory along the bottom only at the expense of gote
fractic: I don't like this result at all for white. The group on the right got a large part of it's eyespace cut out from under it. It's not that weak but with the top group as it is I feel black would take control of the game. Especially since black has sente.
unkx80: As a Black player, I like this result. Somehow, I never liked the idea of sacrificing the five stones.
ThorAvaTahr: The 5 black stones are still sacrificed, it is white's choice to go for the latter variation. In the other variations the black stones do not come to life (immediately). But there will remain aji. If black tries to save his five stones,either in a moment of brilliance he will succeed; but it is more likely that that strategy will lead to disaster.
At move B101, Andy Pierce wrote: I couldn't figure out whether should be at or not to make white's eye false without giving white a lot of forcing moves on the top. Anyone have thoughts on this? For what it's worth, black needs to get something here, but I don't think black has enough strength in the middle to pull it off.
unkx80: Between and , I definitely will choose . Capturing the White stone at a is unusually large, simply because it allows Black to make two eyes for the chain on top. This implies that White b is no longer sente, so Black can play elsewhere rather than defending at c. I won't comment on the second part of Andy's message yet.
unkx80: As mentioned in the comments accompanying the game, ignored the proverb don't attach when attacking, and I agree with this. While I don't expect much material difference in this game, I would just say that more typical moves would be a, b, or c.
unkx80: This is not a criticism, but just pointing out something for the weaker players that came to my mind after the exchange of White 132 and Black 133 ( and ).
Later when connects, must not connect underneath, otherwise Black will get into big trouble with shortage of liberties, the connect-and-die variety.
The correct move for is to descend at .
MrTenuki: With the White group marked with circles being essentially dead, and the marked Black group now being alive, there have been three votes for resignation: me, Malcolm, and fractic. Of course, that's not a majority yet; 3 more votes would be needed since 11 players have played on the White side. What do the rest of you think?
==> In retrospect, I wonder whether my Move 20 (marked with a square) was a losing move. After all, if it weren't for that move, white wouldn't have have to worry about saving the floating group on top AND reducing the bottom moyo at the same time around Move 100...
fractic: , while being a mistake, was far from a game losing move. Let's just review the game after it's done.
Herman Hiddema: I think that at this point, a succinct summary of the position would be: White has 6 groups, one of which is as good as dead and three of which are weak. Black has two groups, which are alive and strong.
Hylebos: You have my vote to resign... I was afraid that black would do something like that to my ... I wonder if there was any way to avoid it..
Dieter: sees 7 white groups.
fractic: Black was allready completely alive after move . There weren't even any useful sente plays left for white. This was mostly thanks to the a b c sequence, which is why I played
Herman Hiddema: Oh yeah, 7 groups even, although white might manage to connect the lower left to the upper center group :)