Ongoing Game 5 / Discussion

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Move 6

Alternatives after 6  

fractic: I got the feeling that W6 was too close. If black plays B7 I think the result is better for black.

Harleqin: W6 is wrong in other ways: it just defends the white stone, but White was first in this corner, so it's very, very slack. The normal aim for the 5-3 point is to pincer a move like B5, e.g. with 'a', or to press down with 'b' etc. and then extend to around 'c'. The result you show here puts Black clearly ahead, I'd estimate around 10 points.

Herman Hiddema: This is bad for white, but it is not by 10 points. I'd guess about 3-4 points or so. Suppose white played 10 at d, then by tewari we could show something like the next diagram.

Bill: I'd say 2-3 pts. :)

Tewari analysis of move 6  

Herman Hiddema: W10 is too close and should be at a, but it does not lose 10 points.

Harleqin: I think that White not only loses some points with the short extension but also with not attacking B5.

Herman Hiddema: W6 may be slightly slack, but B7 is also slack, I would never play that in that position without a pincer already in place.

Move 10

Alternate White 10  

Kokiri - I really wanted to play W1 here as an alternative to W10 as played for real, but didn't want to play 2 moves on the same board. Is this line playable?

fractic: I would say W1 here is probably better then as in the game. Woudn't W3 at B4 be better though?

Should 3 defend in this variation?  

Dieter No I don't think so. Black can take easy territory then and White's cut will be inefficient.

Herman Hiddema: I think W5 can do better, see next diagrams

Tesuji after defense with 3, stretch with 4  

Herman Hiddema I'm not sure B4 is a good move. What do you do after W5?

Options, IMO, in the next diagrams:

Better than pushing through directly  
White cuts, W13 is very pleasant, black is floating  

fractic: Black has the option of B8 at W9 though.

Herman Hiddema: Yes, but then you get exactly the same result as Dieters diagram, except for the fact that black has answered white+circle with B6 instead of a, a clear gain for white, as she can now take the corner.

fractic: I realized that but it's still pushing from behind. It's still good for white.

Herman Hiddema: W7 is pushing through, that's different than simply pushing form behind, as white is also cutting off a stone. But B8 at W9 would be terrible bad shape anyway, better to make a one point jump. I've added a diagram for that:

White cuts, still has the option of a  

Herman Hiddema: For example, like this. Playing W9 may be dubious though, perhaps white is better of playing tenuki.

White still cuts, and keeps the option of a  
Similar cut, still the option of a  

Dieter: Looking at this diagram, I think a territory oriented Black player may play a as early as now. It's about 20 points in gote given the bad shape of the White stones and the aji of b. Given that this was White's first move corner, the result is at least balanced. I think I like the variation better, where Black's central stones float.

Anyway, I didn't spot the tesuji, so thanks for this.

Herman Hiddema: Hmm. It is awfully big isn't it? I have a bit of a blind spot for that sometimes, where I consider any move I can count the points gained as "end game", and ignore it too long :-)

So perhaps one of the next diagrams?

Take the corner (B10 at a, perhaps)  

Dieter: Hmmm. Now Black has sente to play at the bottom. Maybe White can treat W9 and a as miai?

Herman Hiddema: True, black can treat he marked stone lightly now, and a move at c looks very attractive. Perhaps te3nuki instad of W9 is indeed an option.

Also nice, but perhaps black will not play B8?  

Dieter: Woosh, I will always like the three thick central stones and still the aji of b has not disappeared.

Herman Hiddema: True, but now at least white has sente to play c or thereabout. I think this may be reasonably even. White takes 10-12 points and sente, while black gets a lot of thickness.

Dieter: We're already converging largely, but c is hardly sente against the black group. Black might be happy wit d after all and e is more Black's than White's so the eye seems pretty safe.


Dieter: Canceling out the circled captured stones, the superfluous squared stones have no Black counterpart. Tewari seems to demonstrate a favourable result for Black.

So maybe like this, reversal to the second diagram  

Dieter: Hence no, W9 is too good for her, with white+circle aji present.

Bob McGuigan: There is a move similar to B7 in the game discussed in Yilun Yang's Tricks in Joseki and shown in diagrams on the SL page for the book.


Dieter I think W10 was honte. The continuation of the alternative goes like this and the shape of the W2 group is not splendid. white+circle is well placed and Black is floating in the centre, so I'm not so sure how bad the result really is for White.

Herman Hiddema: This variation feels slightly dubious, what is white's next move? a seems impossible, but b isn't very good either.


Anonymous: Although W1 looks kind of funny, it left Black some weird aji in the lower left that a move like B2 was really appealing for Black. Then, W3 encloses the corner, which is something that I am addicted to =(

Anonymous: (Since I don't want to play too many moves, I am going to cheat a little =p ) If we look at this diagram, I think black+circle is kind of misplaced. (So where do I think black+circle is better at?)

Move 20

Moves 20-21  

ThorAvaTahr: W20 does not seem right to me. It seems to hurt the marked stone (and it is not necessary to get ahead as in another common joseki). I think a is the most common joseki here.

Andy Pierce: I think you're right and after B21, the white+circle black+circle exchange is going to work out to be white pushing from behind. Not a major loss though.

ThorAvaTahr: In the common joseki white (a) could also be seen as pushing from behind, but I think that white does it so that she can obtain sente.

Move 25

ThorAvaTahr: I think we should first continue for a few moves, but I have a comment about this move :)

Tapir: It is the only move for black imho.

Move 29

ThorAvaTahr: Ouch, this play is at an uninteresting side?, does not help the current fight and creates a double low wing formation, it seems to me that 30 is the correct punishment.

Move 39


Dieter: Though I agree the upper left is urgent and B39 makes nice shape, I still think it is wrong, because it builds influence towards a solid White group.

Herman Hiddema: Will answer when this has been played out further :-)


Dieter the top is the bigger side, so I think this B39 and B41 is better. Incidentally, B39 if unanswered gives a ko in the corner. Also, probaby a is globally better than B41.

Move 50

Alternative for W50  

unkx80: W50 was played at B2 in this diagram. I thought that W50 can be played like this, settling the top side while gobbling up black+circle, and leaving behind a cutting point at a.

Thanks to the white+circle stone, a White move at b threatens to connect back with c, so it is not possible to kill the corner.

I would consider this a big success for White.

Andy Pierce: Well, B47 (black+square) was my move, and I'm pretty sure I should have made the expected response to Dieter's kikashi at a, but it just seemed too submissive, a total gain for white. I thought that between white owing a move in the corner and the thinness of white on the top side that white would be too busy to take much advantage, but I overlooked the inability of black to block white's connection underneath (as pointed out by unkx80).


Dieter: I think all of B41, B43 and B45 should have been at a, really attacking White weak top group, while influencing the centre. If White flees to the left, her corner will affected and Black will be able to play a double purpose move or otherwise play according to the circumstances.

unkx80: Dieter, if B41 is played at a, then White can play b, Black c, White d, linking up with the stone on the right and sealing Black in. Wouldn't Black be rather uncomfortable?

kb: I think B41 should be at e, making a thick shape and threatening to attack the top and the right at the same time.

Move 75

Moves 71-80  

unkx80: I suggest that B75 is better played at a. As seen in the game, there is a lot of aji left at places around b and c.

fractic: B75 as played in the game creates some nasty potential in the corner around d.

unkx80: But Black has to go back and patch up, so it feels like sente no gote to me.

Move 77

ThorAvaTahr. I don't think it is necessary to protect here, and i don't like the way the protection is done. If it is sente, it doesn't mean it is good. My idea was to take another big point, for instance 77 below. There is no immediate danger of being cut, I don't believe white can actually play like below.

Moves 77-86  

...the push from behind, B77 of the game, really greatly helps white, i think.

kokiri - I don't think this sequence for white is at all possible, but perhaps in response to B77 a jump into the moyo such as a makes Black's move less valuable?

Herman Hiddema: B77 is indeed wrong, pushing white from beind into the black moyo and squeezing out the toothpaste, but the entire lower right is very strange from B63 onward, I think, see next diagram:

Moves 61-70  

After B61, white has two problems. The stones on the right are weak, and the lower right corner is weak. I like W62, which attacks black on the right, while preventing a moyo to the left. B63 is strange, allow the Elephants Eye move of W64. I would prefer to lean on white below (eg attach on top of 62) in order to attack the stones on the right. After B63-W64, black is suddenly actually weak on the right. B65 is a strange move, but W66 is definitely the wrong reply, IMO. White should not allow black to walk trough a keima like that, so W66 should be at B67. Black then makes exactly the same mistake with B69, which (after some exchanged moves) allows white to rip through the keima B63-B69 with W74 at a. B69 at a or b would've been much better. After W74, the entire position is one big mess of ripped keima's :-)

Move 87

Moves 81-90  

unkx80: Anyone thought of playing B87 at a? Because if Black gets to play at b as well, it affects the life and death of White's corner. This would make good discussion material. =)

Move 87 alternative  

I looked at it, but I did not really like this option.

unkx80: Hmm. If my reading serves me right, B93 should be able to play at W94. No?

Move 87 alternative B95 @ black+circle  

This is no good, because black needs to connect and then white can still live in the corner

Move 93

Moves 91-100  

Andy Pierce: for B93 I was considering between a and b. If it can be made to work, I liked b, but I'm not sure black can successfully pull it off. Opinions here?

ThorAvaTahr: I was also considering them, although I had me best hopes on c.

fractic: I think playing a threatening b is very big. If white answers at d then black can play at c. If white defends at c the corner is not fully alive if black gets to play b so that would leave terrible adji. I was glad to be able to play W94 at a.

ThorAvaTahr: Let me stress the advantages of c, if white answers on the outside we will get a big profit in gote (while the sacrificed stones still provide some aji) see below:

Variation 1  

ThorAvaTahr: If white answers on the inner side, black gets less profit (still a lot) but in sente (perhaps w4 should even be at a):

Variation 2  
Variation 3  

Herman Hiddema: Another variation

Variation 3 cont'd  

Herman Hiddema: White has more liberties, but black wins due to me ari me nashi

Variation 3 cont'd  

Herman Hiddema: So white will have to play like this, and both will live

kokiri - this looks pretty satisfactory to white (from my, white player's eyes at least) - black can prevent white from getting further into the middle territory along the bottom only at the expense of gote

fractic: I don't like this result at all for white. The group on the right got a large part of it's eyespace cut out from under it. It's not that weak but with the top group as it is I feel black would take control of the game. Especially since black has sente.

unkx80: As a Black player, I like this result. Somehow, I never liked the idea of sacrificing the five stones.

ThorAvaTahr: The 5 black stones are still sacrificed, it is white's choice to go for the latter variation. In the other variations the black stones do not come to life (immediately). But there will remain aji. If black tries to save his five stones,either in a moment of brilliance he will succeed; but it is more likely that that strategy will lead to disaster.

Move 99

Move 99  

At move B101, Andy Pierce wrote: I couldn't figure out whether B99 should be at W100 or not to make white's eye false without giving white a lot of forcing moves on the top. Anyone have thoughts on this? For what it's worth, black needs to get something here, but I don't think black has enough strength in the middle to pull it off.

unkx80: Between B99 and W100, I definitely will choose B99. Capturing the White stone at a is unusually large, simply because it allows Black to make two eyes for the chain on top. This implies that White b is no longer sente, so Black can play elsewhere rather than defending at c. I won't comment on the second part of Andy's message yet.

Move 129

Move 129  

unkx80: As mentioned in the comments accompanying the game, B29 ignored the proverb don't attach when attacking, and I agree with this. While I don't expect much material difference in this game, I would just say that more typical moves would be a, b, or c.

Move 132

After move 132  

unkx80: This is not a criticism, but just pointing out something for the weaker players that came to my mind after the exchange of White 132 and Black 133 (white+circle and black+circle).

Later when W1 connects, B2 must not connect underneath, otherwise Black will get into big trouble with shortage of liberties, the connect-and-die variety.

The correct move for B2 is to descend at B3.

Move 134

Moves 131-140  

MrTenuki: With the White group marked with circles being essentially dead, and the marked Black group now being alive, there have been three votes for resignation: me, Malcolm, and fractic. Of course, that's not a majority yet; 3 more votes would be needed since 11 players have played on the White side. What do the rest of you think?

==> In retrospect, I wonder whether my Move 20 (marked with a square) was a losing move. After all, if it weren't for that move, white wouldn't have have to worry about saving the floating group on top AND reducing the bottom moyo at the same time around Move 100...

fractic: W20, while being a mistake, was far from a game losing move. Let's just review the game after it's done.

Herman Hiddema: I think that at this point, a succinct summary of the position would be: White has 6 groups, one of which is as good as dead and three of which are weak. Black has two groups, which are alive and strong.

Hylebos: You have my vote to resign... I was afraid that black would do something like that to my W32... I wonder if there was any way to avoid it..

Dieter: sees 7 white groups.

fractic: Black was allready completely alive after move B21. There weren't even any useful sente plays left for white. This was mostly thanks to the a b c sequence, which is why I played W28

Herman Hiddema: Oh yeah, 7 groups even, although white might manage to connect the lower left to the upper center group :)

Ongoing Game 5 / Discussion last edited by Dieter on October 18, 2023 - 12:00
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