Dieter: I changed the title. I'm willing to go through your article as well, correcting spelling and grammar and adding linkage where appropriate.
uxs: I don't think this page is finished yet. Perhaps major spelling and grammar correcting should wait until it is.
choreck: Personally, I would prefer reading Minue's own writing, not the grammatically edited, bulleted, book-like version. Why do you edit page if it is already understandable?
Dieter: You mean edit the page? #:-7 OK, I was a little early maybe. I'm not a native speaker anyway. But I do think we all want the best possible quality on SL. I think this article is wonderful and I wanted to make it even more enjoyable by removing the spelling mistakes. I'll hold back for now.
tderz: For me it is the same (with Dieter) and I am neither a native speaker.
Did 1/2 hour of editing in vain. Better some native speakers should do the job when Minue states that he has finished editing the content.
I guess that Minue himself prefers an unambiguous and nicely readable page - and we can ask him!
uxs: I would prefer a version that has been slightly edited to correct obvious spelling and grammar mistakes. Great care must be taken not to change the meaning of the text, it looks very interesting and losing or changing it would be a waste. ChrisHayashida's changes look fine so far.
unkx80: I am not sure but Minue might have thought that someone simply duplicated the contents without noticing that the duplicate version is the corrected one. Anyway I suppose that obvious mistakes can be edited in directly, don't think he would mind that, but just don't change the formatting or presentation style of his writing.
nachtrabe: A couple of things.
Minue622 i re-read my writing several times,,,, as I read it over and over , I'm beginning to worry about and... be not sure if this contents of the tutorial is really understandable and readable for "my main target readers(25~15k players)".
(in some part) explanation looks or sounds too abstract, impractical, or too lengthy (in my impression). um... anyway i will go on working.
btw...about editing, if it doesn't change and distorted what i meant initially, i never mind about it. and...if some beginner ( level readers give me some hint or comments on readability of this tutorial, i will appreciate it much,.
Minue622 not sure if i see exactly what u meant jared. but this writing is meant to be a "self contained tutorial", to teach (stpe by step) how to play Locally and jugde local positions, from easy positions to harder and complex local positions. this tutorial is not for reference page. all chapters are related (in my intention) to each other.
Minue622 i saw what u meant, but id like to consider about it after i finish to complete this tutorial .
Bill: I want to thank you, Minue, for this material. I'm sure people will find it helpful. As for whether it is appropriate for beginners, their questions and comments will be valuable in getting it right.
Dieter: Minue, I'm convinced that this is extremely valuable material. I have already announced on the Belgian mailing list and in my club that this material is available and have advised to read it thoroughly. It's about fundamentals, but addresses the fundamentals from the very basis and not in a superficial, deliberately cunning way like Lessons in the fundamentals. I have two other concerns:
C.S. Graves: As someone in the intended kyu range, I have to echo Dieter's sentinment. The Haeng-ma tutorial is indeed quite valuable to a beginner such as myself. I'm not going to touch the formatting issue, other than thinking the minor spelling/grammatical changes could potentially improve clarity without changing the meaning. But Minue's command of English is far better than any second language I have!
Minue622: Dieter, if someone will patch up the tutorial for better spelling, and grammer, it's ok for me.
and...i already read basic instinct several times in past. In fact, my tutorial is intended to be ...a kind of following reading material(or supplementary reading material) of that article basic instinct. anyway, i think, it is a good starting point for beginners to learn to play "right local moves".
C.S. Graves: From the parent page: whenever you see this position, you must feel disgusting for white's rotten stones.
Harsh! Heh heh... I guess I will feel that way from now on.
axd: For the first time, when reading this text (and doing minimally chosen edits), something has been telling me that edits - well-meant be they - should rather be kept to a bare minimum, such as corrections of typos. Minue's use of English adds a unique touch of authenticity, a signature to the text, which contrasts all the polished English we see elsewhere in SL. Sure, Minue asks no better than to polish the text, but maybe a little imperfection should stay in the text, as long as the text can be read in a more or less fluent way. "Outsiders" (to this discussion) might not be aware of this fragile idea, and happily edit away, in true wiki tradition... I guess that wabi sabi is close to what I want to express here.
pogo?: I'd have to disagree. If I'm reading a journal, or autobiography, I value authenticity first. If I'm reading educational material, including lessons on go, I value readability first. Grammar mistakes lessen readability; therefore, correct grammar is a priority in this kind of writing. Many thanks to all who are doing grammar edits on SL.
ilan: I just copy edited, and I tried to keep it to a minimum: spelling errors and insertion of articles. I think that such errors tend to stand out like a soer thubm and make it hard to focus on the actual material. I agree that it is important to keep the stilted style for authenticity, I just saw The Karate Kid II and Sensei wisdom sound much less profound if stated in perfect English.
Dieter: Blubb, don't you think you are actually rewriting the tutorial instead of merely correcting mistakes? For instance, Minue uses a repetitive style: maybe this is intentional, to have ideas sink deeply into the reader's mind, maybe it is not. But that is not our choice, I think. It's an essay, not collaborative article.
Um...Actually, I said to him
- "blubb, if you want, edit it as you like to do, I dont bother about so-called minueish authenticity of that tutorial, So if you can keep main line of my meaning and argument, even drastic change of writing style is no problem to me, Im sure your edition will improve its readability". -
Anyway..., in my view, blubb's rewriting(?) of that tutorial looks fine so far, and seems that readibility of it got improved substantially by him. After all, this tutorial is not a literary writing but just techical one for practical use. So, I think that we dont need to worry about change of writing style of this tutorial as long as the meaning of this tutorialc can be kept.
At last, thanks to all who have helped me by editing my tutorial.
one more thing to say. I'm considering to replace the term -"iron pillar move" with "simple connecting move(or, simple connection)". blubb pointed that, in english go term, the meaning of "iron pillar" is more specific, So my use(or abuse) of that term(iron pillar) may arouse some confusion, or misunderstanding.
any suggestions or comment on this problem?
Dieter: Happy for that, because I agree blubb's version is more readable. Simple connection is fine, but on the other hand I thought you were specifically referring to a simple connection of two stones. One could use iron pillar for that, but the problem may be that iron pillar suggests a vertical position from the edge up to the center. I never liked iron pillar much anyway. Simple connection is far preferable.
BTw...I wrote some stuff on Ja-choong-soo(자충수) in my tutorial and the literal meaning of that terms is "a move which fills its own liberties"
Anyone who knows what is english Go term for it? If not, how to translate this term into "plain english"? uxs: I had a look around but couldn't find a specific english term for "Ja-choong-so". "Move that takes its own liberties" seems the shortest that is still more or less correct. If you want to be pedantic, you'd probably have to call it "Move that (needlessly) takes its own liberties, or has the potential to do so," but that seems hardly practical.
At this point I feel I should repeat Jared's request for making this page a path, splitting it in multiple chapters. It's getting a bit long and unwieldy. Splitting will make it easier to navigate and to edit.
axd Sure, (the table of contents is already an indication) but let's not disturb Minue with such details at this stage, it is most likely that he will want to reorder stuff, need quick access to various sections, etc; the very last paragraph on the page should make this obvious. If anyone decides on sectioning, at this stage Minue obviously is the only one that has the right and the foresight to do so (but I would be surprised if he did it). Once the text is stable, sectioning can be envisaged, and maybe reduce the levels in the TOC as well. So, let's rather enjoy watching this text grow, and look forward for more.
I'll also take the opportunity to thank Minue for this material. I'm allready trying to use the principles in my own games.
axd: there seem to be language discussions ongoing at SL (e.g. JapaneseGoTerms/Discussion, please replace if someone has a more accurate location, I thought there were more recent pages on this), I'm not sure as to the outcome; IMHO you introduced a concept and a name (and ho! there is a page already: JaChoongSoo), I don't think there is a hurry to translate if not accurate.
Remillard: Aye, I started that page, mostly because I was intrigued by the concept. It strikes me that there is probably a lot of this sort thing that I do, and/or play against, and it'd be nice to explore it a bit. I got hung up on the literal definition a bit and maybe the page will help someone avoid that trap.
axd: suggestion: Ja-choong-soo = marsh move? As when you continue that way, you get deeper and deeper in trouble?
Remillard: Personally I think that's a pretty murky metaphor. ;-)
axd: or swamp move? I don't know how different this might be from "marsh move".
maruseru: "ja-chung" sounds almost onomatopoetically to me, like the sound of a coin that's been dropped into a gambling device, or the sound of a cash register. One association that springs up is "thanks for playing - insert next coin". Nevertheless, a good translation of "ja-chung su" would be one that follows the original meaning of "self-filling move".
DnF: suggestion: Ja-choong-soo = self restraining move? Or maybe self-quenching move.
Minue : Kgs player isshoni-14k suggested "dead-end move" for a english term of "ja-choong soo" right ago. I can not judge if that term transfers correct or close nuance of "Ja-choong soo" with my broken english, but it sounds good in my guess. so i will adopt it for english go term of ja choong soo, till i find better one.
Remillard: I was thinking about this again this morning and the phrase masochistic came to mind. This might be overly dramatic, but it does convey the "you're only hurting yourself" idea.
Another idea I came up with, considering the analogy of liberties to breathing was suffocating which actually seems to capture some of the idea of being closed in, drowning, losing life lines, etc.