• White: Fhayashi
  • Black: koing (unranked at time)
  • Place: KGS
  • Date: 2003/09/24
  • Time: 6:06:07 PM
  • Result: 308 moves, W+17.5

This is my first game after attaining 10 kyu ranking on KGS. Please feel free to comment.

Moves 1 to 10  


Velobici: B1 and B3 at komoku do not finish the corner, both seek to become a shimari, whereas W2 and W4 at hoshi are complete unto themselves. Due to this, B5 is misplaced. It is more important for Black to complete a shimari than to enter the left side of the board. B7 in place of B5 results in the Enclosure Opening and forestalls a play by White at that point. By contrast a, in place of B5, creating a shimari in the top right corner does not cooperate with the Black stone in bottom right as well as B7, in place of B5. (just my two cents. I am also 10k, so this may be completely off base.)

Fhayashi: Totally agreed on B5. If black was going to play something like this, at least one of B1 or B3 should have been played at the 4-4 point. As it is, the only thing B5 does to white is prevent a san-ren-sei opening, which white probably won't do anyways. As it is, black's play allows white to make two good approach moves to the right two corners.

dnerra: I would be a little bit less religious about this. Hey, black is claiming the two corners are miai, so why not take a big point somewhere else instead. Yes, probably it is not absolutely optimal, but I would not expect any noticeable (to me) benefit from it if I were white. And, indeed, after White 18....

Joonas Tyystjärvi: I think black might like to play a MiniChineseFormation on the lower side. B5 looks somewhat slow.

Dia 1  


Joonas Tyystjärvi: I'd like the opportunity to play like this as white. W3 works well with both the lower right thickness and the lower left hoshi.

Fhayashi: I'd play W3 on the third line... All those stones on the fourth line make me a bit nervous.

dnerra: Then you have the wrong attitude towards this position: You think it should be white's territory, and you are afraid it might get lost after black invades. Instead it is a framework, that either will become territory for white, or (more likely) partially become territory for white after black invades, with white getting much thickness in addition.

Fhayashi: Hmm, this is good food for thought.

Moves 11 to 20  


Fhayashi: W2 at a would have been joseki, but I figured it would be a bit slow, and even if black were to play on the third line somewhere around here, I could pincer from one side or the other to 'activate' the corner stone in the lower left. As you can see by my play so far, I like the 3-4 point high approach, and I like the variant as played rather than W6 at b. Now, the joseki move at W8 combines both extension from W2, W4, W6, but also serves to limit the development of the black lower right corner.

HolIgor: I don't approve of the timing of W2. If you did not want to finish joseki at the bottom then the marked white stone (W10 on the previous diagram) looks redundant. As the result the black stones in the corner became stronger while the marked white stone is not a very useful. I'd play W2 on the previous move or the marked white stone had to be at x.


Evand: I think you are looking at W8 in the wrong way. The black corner in the lower right is low and solid, and is not really something one develops from. Remember, the fourth line is the line of development, the third line is the line of completion. Black is done in the lower right, so I think that playing W6 in an effort to get W8 an extra space down is misguided -- that seems too much like playing near a solid group, which isn't a good idea. So, I prefer the variation with W6 at b. It is more solid, and the invasion point at c is protected against. Now, all that said, I might be wrong about the final conclusion ;)

B9 / W10

dnerra (following up on my comment above on White 5) I think here black has already psychologically succeeded in his strategy. White rushed to take the second corner instead of completing the joseki, and now white faces an attack on his stones in the lower right, and these stones might quickly become heavy. I would defintely prefer black now.

Fhayashi: After B9, I wanted some sort of pincer. As a habit, I play either two space extensions (as in c) or the 'big big' knight's move ([ext] daidaigeima) of W10. I personally don't like to play the three space extension of d, because I find it difficult deal with a black play at e. With W10, if black plays e, I play f, and vice versa.

Evand: B9 seems like a bad move to me. It is too close to (relatively) strong stones. I believe W10 is the correct answer. Here, the consideration for where to put W10 is less the relationship with the star stone and more the relationship with B9. For other sets of Black stones, W10 at f or g could be appropriate; e and c are generally played for their relationship to the left side, e.g. as part of a moyo strategy. The point is to get close enough to the black stone to restrict its movements, while still making a nice relationship with the hoshi stone. By the way, if you play d and black invades at e (wouldn't happen here, this is in the general case) you usually need to answer with an attacking move like a diagonal move or one point jump. Because Black is high, he will have trouble making a base, and will need to run into the center. So, pick the direction, and give chase.

dnerra: I agree that W10 is a good answer, but nevertheless B9 is good. I almost think it is the only move here. White has omitted making a base, and black should take that opportunity to create a potentially heavy, weak white group. The only comment I have about B9 is that one would love to peep at h beforehand, but that does not really work well as white resists at i.

mAsterdam: The 34 Point High Approach Inside Contact Joseki certainly lives up to it's reputation of being the most common of all Joseki. In both cases White chose the hanging connection variant. In the first one, W6 - B11 (B11 = B1 in the diagram of moves 11 - 20), White chose not to play the last move (a), which would be a three-space low extension from W 10 (W 10 =W10 in the diagram of moves 1 - 10).

This not making the last move of the joseki in theory leaves an unbalanced situation. This may have triggered B19 (B9, D 11-20). What would have been a good way for Black to exploit the unbalance?

Fhayashi: I wonder if the hanging connection variant is more suitable for tenuki? The solid connection leaves a non-empty triangle, which seems to be rather heavy. The hanging connection leaves more space for sabaki even when the last joseki move is omitted. But then again, there are two opportunities for black to peep.

Moves 21 to 30  

dnerra: W8 is a very typcial mistake. The move is white at a instead. Probably black will still extend at B9, and after W10, W8 is much worse placed than the alternative at a, as the latter does not leave a cut (and gives eye shape, too).

This is such a frequent shape mistake that I can almost promise a gain in half a stone by understanding this concept :-)

Fhayashi: Hmm, is this what they mean by extend from a crosscut?

Moves 31 to 40  

unkx80: White 36 captures two essential cutting stones. Obvious blunder aside, I would say that Black 33 should be played at 34, with better shape.

Moves 41 to 50  

Fhayashi: Playing B1 and then ignoring W2 seems inconsistent. Better to not play B1 at all and play first at B3. B3 cuts off white's stones in the upper right from the lower right group using a splitting attack, but B1 gives them eye space.

HolIgor: B9 is a typical mistake and deserves a few words. Black had to atari from the other side playing at 10. B9 voluntaraly splits black forces into two weak groups. Black is never going to catch white stones in the middle as he has to play from both sides.

Playing at 10 and then connecting black has wider exit to the center and puts some pressure on the white floating group.

Watching the games of the stronger players you will see many example of the attack that leaves both opponents in single piece rather then the cut.

Moves 51 to 60  
Moves 61 to 70  

B5 Joonas Tyystjärvi: B5 should, of course, be at W6. This is the potential that black has had since move 23 (black+circle).

HolIgor: W10. I'd simply capture. Why give oppponent one more forcing move?

Moves 71 to 80  
Moves 81 to 90  

W4 at white+circle, W8 at B1

HolIgor: W2 is very bad. Look at the next diagram.

W10 gives the opponent a target for attack again.

Simple pull.  

After W2 here white keeps does not have as many weak points.

Moves 91 to 100  
Moves 101 to 110  
Moves 111 to 120  
Moves 121 to 130  
Moves 131 to 140  

Fhayashi: B9 is bad, as it asks for W10, which only gives white the corner. Better the double sente move of a, or even better the invasion at W10.

HolIgor: What is the reason white did not play a instead of W10?

Fhayashi: Because I am not good as I want to be yet.

HolIgor's suggestion  
Moves 141 to 150  

Fhayashi: I (white) messed up here on the right, as you'll see. W8 at a would have been better.

On to the next moves - Fhayashi-koing-2003-09-24-part 2

Fhayashi-koing-2003-09-24 last edited by ProtoDeuteric on July 18, 2006 - 05:49
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