- White: Fhayashi
- Black: koing (unranked at time)
- Place: KGS
- Date: 2003/09/24
- Time: 6:06:07 PM
- Result: 308 moves, W+17.5
This is my first game after attaining 10 kyu ranking on KGS. Please feel free to comment.
Velobici: and at komoku do not finish the corner, both seek to become a shimari, whereas and at hoshi are complete unto themselves. Due to this, is misplaced. It is more important for Black to complete a shimari than to enter the left side of the board. in place of results in the Enclosure Opening and forestalls a play by White at that point. By contrast a, in place of , creating a shimari in the top right corner does not cooperate with the Black stone in bottom right as well as , in place of . (just my two cents. I am also 10k, so this may be completely off base.)
Fhayashi: Totally agreed on . If black was going to play something like this, at least one of or should have been played at the 4-4 point. As it is, the only thing does to white is prevent a san-ren-sei opening, which white probably won't do anyways. As it is, black's play allows white to make two good approach moves to the right two corners.
- dnerra: I would be a little bit less religious about this. Hey, black is claiming the two corners are miai, so why not take a big point somewhere else instead. Yes, probably it is not absolutely optimal, but I would not expect any noticeable (to me) benefit from it if I were white. And, indeed, after White 18....
Joonas Tyystjärvi: I'd like the opportunity to play like this as white. works well with both the lower right thickness and the lower left hoshi.
Fhayashi: I'd play on the third line... All those stones on the fourth line make me a bit nervous.
dnerra: Then you have the wrong attitude towards this position: You think it should be white's territory, and you are afraid it might get lost after black invades. Instead it is a framework, that either will become territory for white, or (more likely) partially become territory for white after black invades, with white getting much thickness in addition.
Fhayashi: Hmm, this is good food for thought.
Fhayashi: at a would have been joseki, but I figured it would be a bit slow, and even if black were to play on the third line somewhere around here, I could pincer from one side or the other to 'activate' the corner stone in the lower left. As you can see by my play so far, I like the 3-4 point high approach, and I like the variant as played rather than at b. Now, the joseki move at combines both extension from , , , but also serves to limit the development of the black lower right corner.
HolIgor: I don't approve of the timing of . If you did not want to finish joseki at the bottom then the marked white stone ( on the previous diagram) looks redundant. As the result the black stones in the corner became stronger while the marked white stone is not a very useful. I'd play on the previous move or the marked white stone had to be at x.
Evand: I think you are looking at in the wrong way. The black corner in the lower right is low and solid, and is not really something one develops from. Remember, the fourth line is the line of development, the third line is the line of completion. Black is done in the lower right, so I think that playing in an effort to get an extra space down is misguided -- that seems too much like playing near a solid group, which isn't a good idea. So, I prefer the variation with at b. It is more solid, and the invasion point at c is protected against. Now, all that said, I might be wrong about the final conclusion ;)
- dnerra (following up on my comment above on White 5) I think here black has already psychologically succeeded in his strategy. White rushed to take the second corner instead of completing the joseki, and now white faces an attack on his stones in the lower right, and these stones might quickly become heavy. I would defintely prefer black now.
Fhayashi: After , I wanted some sort of pincer. As a habit, I play either two space extensions (as in c) or the 'big big' knight's move ( daidaigeima) of . I personally don't like to play the three space extension of d, because I find it difficult deal with a black play at e. With , if black plays e, I play f, and vice versa.
Evand: seems like a bad move to me. It is too close to (relatively) strong stones. I believe is the correct answer. Here, the consideration for where to put is less the relationship with the star stone and more the relationship with . For other sets of Black stones, at f or g could be appropriate; e and c are generally played for their relationship to the left side, e.g. as part of a moyo strategy. The point is to get close enough to the black stone to restrict its movements, while still making a nice relationship with the hoshi stone. By the way, if you play d and black invades at e (wouldn't happen here, this is in the general case) you usually need to answer with an attacking move like a diagonal move or one point jump. Because Black is high, he will have trouble making a base, and will need to run into the center. So, pick the direction, and give chase.
dnerra: I agree that is a good answer, but nevertheless is good. I almost think it is the only move here. White has omitted making a base, and black should take that opportunity to create a potentially heavy, weak white group. The only comment I have about is that one would love to peep at h beforehand, but that does not really work well as white resists at i.
mAsterdam: The 34 Point High Approach Inside Contact Joseki certainly lives up to it's reputation of being the most common of all Joseki. In both cases White chose the hanging connection variant. In the first one, - ( = in the diagram of moves 11 - 20), White chose not to play the last move (a), which would be a three-space low extension from W 10 (W 10 = in the diagram of moves 1 - 10).
Fhayashi: I wonder if the hanging connection variant is more suitable for tenuki? The solid connection leaves a non-empty triangle, which seems to be rather heavy. The hanging connection leaves more space for sabaki even when the last joseki move is omitted. But then again, there are two opportunities for black to peep.
dnerra: is a very typcial mistake. The move is white at a instead. Probably black will still extend at , and after , is much worse placed than the alternative at a, as the latter does not leave a cut (and gives eye shape, too).
This is such a frequent shape mistake that I can almost promise a gain in half a stone by understanding this concept :-)
unkx80: White 36 captures two essential cutting stones. Obvious blunder aside, I would say that Black 33 should be played at 34, with better shape.
Fhayashi: Playing and then ignoring seems inconsistent. Better to not play at all and play first at . cuts off white's stones in the upper right from the lower right group using a splitting attack, but gives them eye space.
HolIgor: is a typical mistake and deserves a few words. Black had to atari from the other side playing at 10. voluntaraly splits black forces into two weak groups. Black is never going to catch white stones in the middle as he has to play from both sides.
Playing at 10 and then connecting black has wider exit to the center and puts some pressure on the white floating group.
Watching the games of the stronger players you will see many example of the attack that leaves both opponents in single piece rather then the cut.
Joonas Tyystjärvi: should, of course, be at . This is the potential that black has had since move 23 ().
HolIgor: . I'd simply capture. Why give oppponent one more forcing move?
at , at
HolIgor: is very bad. Look at the next diagram.
gives the opponent a target for attack again.
HolIgor: What is the reason white did not play a instead of ?
Fhayashi: Because I am not good as I want to be yet.
Fhayashi: I (white) messed up here on the right, as you'll see. at a would have been better.
On to the next moves - Fhayashi-koing-2003-09-24-part 2