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Positional Judgement by Cho Chikun - Worth reading at what rank? [#301]

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Phelan: Positional Judgement by Cho Chikun - Worth reading at what rank? (2006-02-15 11:24) [#1041]

I'd like to know at what rank should I start reading PositionalJudgmentHighSpeedGameAnalysis. I'm around 16-15k now, and I find that I can't estimate the score properly, and end up risking too much and losing won games...

David Carlton says it's [ext] worth reading, but at what rank?.

Is it too advanced for me?

AlexWeldon: Re: Positional Judgement by Cho Chikun - Worth reading at what rank? (2006-02-15 16:45) [#1044]

I read the book when I was around 12k, didn't like it and didn't feel I'd learned much from it, except maybe a bit of a feeling for how deeply to reduce a moyo. I haven't reread it since, so I don't know if I was just too weak then to get it, or whether I actually do disagree that with those that recommend it. Either way, I'd recommend holding off on it until you're stronger. The book that helped me most at your level was James Davies Attack and Defense the book, which bumped me up about 5 stones almost overnight. I didn't manage to get my hands on the rest of his series at that time, but I'm sure they'd be equally helpful to a DDK like yourself, if you haven't read them already.

Bill: Re: Positional Judgement by Cho Chikun - Worth reading at what rank? (2006-02-15 16:58) [#1045]

Phelan, I think that you might find parts of the book difficult. OTOH, I think that you can gain from the parts you can understand, and may advance several stones as a result. I would say go ahead and get the book, particularly as go books have a way of going out of print. ;-)

As a caveat, some people here have not found the book helpful. I was one of those, but I read the book as a dan player. Still, I see many errors of judgement by amateurs, even high dan players. How many books in English address the question of positional judgement? Re: Positional Judgement by Cho Chikun - Worth reading at what rank? (2006-02-15 17:33) [#1046]

Bob McGuigan: Positional judgement is difficult at all levels. Even pros have trouble with it. So my advice is not to try for too much at first but rather make this an ongoing thing that you will be studying from now on. You say you make errors in estimating the score. First I would get stronger players, probably dan level would be best, to look over your games with you and analyse your score estimates. That might help you get a better perspective on what you are actually doing. Estimating the score depends on understanding thickness and how frameworks could be reduced and invaded, fairly advanced topics. That's why it is difficult for weaker players. But Cho's book could be useful for you if you just look at the diagrams showing how he marks borders of positions for the purpose of estimation. That will focus you on shapes and regions of influence which will do you good even at your level.

malweth: ((no subject)) (2006-02-15 11:39) [#1042]

It's probably too much for you.

It's an interesting book to read but there are no problems and defining territories is only loosly explained. The book is essentially a discussion on middle game moves based on amount of territory on the board. I'm 3k and haven't made full use of it yet.

With no problems, I find the book is hard to learn from - real games tend to be loose and territory is less definable. Read "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" for a good explanation of territory useful for your level. As Kage says, (para.) some amateur players brag that they have never estimated the territory in a game. I personally feel that this is an ok way to be until Amateur 1d or so... there are so many more important things to work on.

Dieter: Re: positional judgment (2006-02-15 14:34) [#1043]

The main reason why it would be a mistake to count territory too early is that most people mistake a loosely delimited area for territory, whereas real territory provides stability for the group that surrounds it. It is important to assess the board on the amount of territory, influence, living and strong groups. Counting loosely delimited areas only gives a twisted idea of the game.

ChrisHayashida: Do you already have the book? (2006-02-16 10:11) [#1049]

If so, then you might as well read it.

If not, I think that the estimation method is better in Attack and Defense and the score calculation explanation is better in The Endgame.

I think learning that you should estimate the score and play accordingly is the big step. Estimating (and being off) is a less serious offense, in my opinion. You'll get better at score estimation with experience.

That being said, reading the book can't hurt. Whether or not it could be spent doing something more productive is a different matter.

ChiyoDad: Re: Do you already have the book? (2006-02-16 17:42) [#1056]

I have a copy. IMHO, it's best reserved for when someone becomes a single-digit kyu or dan level.

DrStraw: Free Alternative? (2006-02-16 14:08) [#1051]

DrStraw: Although I did not base my counting lessons on this book there is quite a bit of overlap. Try looking at those first and see if a bit of free advice helps any. You can find a link to them on my home page.

ChrisHayashida: Re: Free Alternative? (2006-02-16 16:50) [#1053]

Just to second the point: I attended Dr. Straw's KGS lecture, and it was where I first learned to count effectively. I am able to count the board in under 45 seconds because of his lecture. It's worthwhile to look at the SGF files from his lecture.

Phelan: Thanks to all! (2006-03-27 14:34) [#1350]

Almost forgot I had posted this question...

I was making a wishlist of interesting Go books, and read about Positional Judgement. I asked because I wasn't sure about adding it to my list.

I had just finished reading AttackAndDefense when I posted it, but the comparative method there is not very helpful to me...I find it very hard to compare areas with weird shapes, or to mentally enlarge any area that has captured stones in it.

DrStraw's counting lessons also seemed not to prove much useful, at the time. CGoban didn't recognize some of the SGF properties, so I wondered if I wasn't getting it because of that.

I was also re-reading Tesuji and TheSecondBookOfGo at the time, since I had gotten half way through those. They were too much for me the first time, I guess. After reading them, my reading skill increased a lot, so it became much easier to understand what was definite, probable and possible territory. After that, the counting lessons started making sense, and I can now estimate definite territory on my DGS games. Now I just have to do it in my real-time games. :P

LessonsInTheFundamentalsOfGo is one of the books I'm considering getting, since I've heard mostly good things about it.

The Endgame seems interesting, I'm adding it to my list!

Thanks to all that answered! :)

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