On Future use of SL Dave wrote:
The difficulty in finding out what is already written up here. This is particularly true for fuseki and joseki items. The content is spread across multiple pages for many of the major lines and we have been inconsistent in linking everything together. It is then difficult to determine whether something has already been covered somewhere, whether it conflicts with another page, etc.
Apart from the content, which could obviously be structured in another/better way, is there some functionality that is missing from SL regarding that aspect?
What kind of function would help you find things? What annoys you the most? What would improve your experience of SL? Any ideas or comments welcome.
The search box works pretty well for me for most instances. I have to admit I am not really searching for fuseki though. Probably the new pattern searcher would help resolve that problem?
i search joseki via find board position... this seems not to be as common as it should be (only 3000 hits). i guess most people arrive through direct links (given to them on forums, servers etc.) to pages or search their way from the frontpage, maybe they do a title search. the advanced navigation seems to be not well-known.
we had an article of the week feature for the board position page, i would be interested in pre-feature access rates and post-feature access rates. maybe we should repeat this sometimes. i proposed similarly to publicize the advanced find page but this idea was not approved (afair). an update of all the navigational paths etc. may be helpful as well, but less so, as people reading them most probably use the navigational tools given already.
For what it's worth, when I was looking for 4-4 point low approach two-space low pincer recently I just went to Joseki Pages and clicked my way through to it: 4-4 point Josekis has a link to it. It didn't even occur to me to use the position search, maybe I'm just not thinking about it. When I did search that position, the top 5 returns are:
the actual pincer page is result 21, although the first three results do all link to it. I do think the duplications in the systematic joseki (and probably pages like above) clog search results sometimes, but it's not too hard to find what I'm looking for usually.
Bob McGuigan: I've written about the difficulty of finding things and lobbied for a find position feature but there are many people for whom a find position feature is not much help, apparently. Most of the frustration with finding things shows itself in other sites where people have commented that they couldn't find information on SL about some topic and then someone else posts a link to it. Some of this frustration comes from lack of patience or perseverance, I think, but also some of the frustrated people are weak players or beginners who don't know how to specify or vary their search queries. Maybe some people get thrown off by redundant, poorly linked pages, particularly on joseki.
that is asking the question what to do about the systematic joseki pages, isn't it?
i never dared to propose deleting them, but maybe that would be the best way.
I never thought SL would function well as a Joseki Dictionary. SL is quite an anti deltionist wiki though - I bet that people will scream if you get rid of them all.
actually i like redundant pages somewhat. there should be space for all. but at some places of long-time inactivity i feel like we have to clean up to open (not physical) but mental space for new contributions... (i have seen no complaints for deleting the non-edited editable rggfaq, but there is a stable version of course.)
i believed with the positional search we could omit this discussion because everyone is going to find what he wants now. but it seems only regulars are using it. (despite the link on the front page, the one-week-feature, the link in each and every diagram etc.)
kb: The problem is not the find position feature - the problem is that it is not accessible enough. There needs to be a link to the search feature directly on the header of every page, or even built in to it. Then it would be obvious for everyone involved to use the feature wherever they are.
Actually, I am in concurrence with the joseki pages - they need to be cleaned up.
I agree with kb on both:
However, deleting the systematic joseki pages is not productive: their existence is only a burden on the random page? feature, which is not used but for a few ardent librarians.
these are 140 pages to be changed temporarily into something else... why? they are not or rarely used, not maintained since years...
what made the systematic approach unsustainable is the one move / page approach. the whole thing will be useful only with a certain degree of completeness in its branches at least. (other than one or two joseki / page approach, where each single joseki can be discussed) considering the usual branching factors and doing some assumptions about length... with an integrated sgf-editor this may be no problem - but as a 1move/page project this is and will be stillborn imho. just imagine the thousands of pages for sth. similar to kogos, however limited that is. + the problem that comments will be easily lost on one of those pages.
Yes, the systematic joseki page is just a source of confusion and should be deleted. All of the comments there are already contained in the other pages, in Kogo's or in other sources. I can help write WMEs for the joseki pages and comments for them, if necessary. The joseki material on SL is otherwise pretty messy anyway.
OK, I'll help out with deleting the systematic joseki pages then. If I come accross something that I think is not kept elsewhere, I'll ask around.
How are we going to continue? Since this discussion SL has seen a wme of joseki and of 44pointjoseki, the addition of several small pages, cleanup of several others but there is much more to do. And nobody went forward regarding the Systematic Joseki pages (I deleted some discussion pages or moved some small related pages.) What are we going to do next?
I think my initial enthusiasm is quickly thwarted by the volume of the work. I'll hang around. --Dieter
I am not sure about what I am doing at 3-4 point joseki because this page now gives one move less (earlier there were links to all the answers to the usual approaches, the intermediary main pages are often not well developed!) but maybe this is the price when the page shall be more comprehensible. Additionally I added some statistics.
Another library work which may help navigating is renaming some odd joseki pages to more comprehensible names or adding aliases.