|Table of contents||Table of diagrams
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 1 - 10
Alternative for Black 7
Alternative for Black 9
Alternative for Black 9, 2
Alternative for Black 9, 2: Variation
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 11 - 20
Alternative for White 16
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v1
Alternative for White 16 - White 20, push
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v2
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v2, 2
Move 37 analysis
Alternative for Move 37: 1
Alternative for Move 37: 1
Alternative for Move 37: 2
Alternative for Move 37: 3
Alternative for Move 37: 4
Move 37 analysis
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 59+60
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 63 - 64
Ongoing Game 4 - Move 72 changed
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 111 - 120
Ongoing Game 4 - Some counting
Herman Hiddema: I'll start then. Not too much to say about this diagram. The situation after has occurred many times in pro play, where the most common continuation for black was to make a shimari in the upper right. Approaching the upper left is also an option however, and has been played (Awaji Shuzo (W) vs. Yo Kagen (B) in the 25th Kisei in 2000). is perhaps a bit unusual, but I do not think that there is generally anything much wrong with these first 10 moves. I would surmise that this is the kind of situatuion where even professionals would be hard pressed to say anything specific about the position. All the stones are high and far apart. (Feels like a Shin-fuseki game :-)
Tapir: (which happens to be played by me) seems somehow to be the first controversial move - being the first move questioned on the discussion page and labeled "wrong move" in the reasoning for . On what terms is it questionable / wrong? My impression after move 21 (at a) was, that the black stones are overall working better together and black is ahead considerably. My second thought was that this might be the result of the hidden quarrel between white players, resulting in less overall consistency - i.e. disregarding the supposed wrong move. My third thought is that it might be more important to make even the dubious moves work, which may lose some points than losing sight of direction / whole board issues by disregarding them. I very much like which ends up being a double purpose move.
Herman Hiddema: There was nothing particularly wrong with , the comment made at is unduly harsh, the magic sword is but one of many variations that can occur from that position.
kb: I played - I was trying to make good balance with , but many players have critiqued the location that ended up on (see the comments on Move9). I think now that tenuki from the bottom right is correct because of the strong position of and - Black is not sure at the moment which response move in the bottom right to play - so playing elsewhere first is fine. Opening theory says that the value of a shimari and kakari are roughly equal (without any context). My vote is this . I eschew at a because I expect White's response to be in the bottom right corner. Thoughts?
Tapir: As I wrote above I did like , especially after move 21 it looks good to my 3k eyes. Since stronger players are critical...
kokiri: I like the idea of a pincer with , but might make it closer than the game. Anyway, playing as in this diagram makes the idea of a black pincer now even more attractive, so I guess white needs to move to forestall the possibility. As white I think I would play simply at c, becuase I'm not sure of a clear way of playing in the corner starting with b.
Dave: I think I would choose this over the move played in the game. I think this makes better use of the marked Black stone (Black 7 in the game). If we imagine White answering as shown, Black retains sente to play first in the upper left or continue to play against the White stone in the lower right. Black's stones are more closely linked. The three-space pincer that Black played in the bottom right is not bad but it is not as severe as the two-space pincer would have been. In the game, after White and Black exchange jumps down the side from the upper right corner, I have the feeling that Black has not gotten full value from the marked stone.
Bill: I agree with Dave that this makes better use of than actual play. But I think that it still leaves misplaced. I would want to play it further from Black's strong corner.
Bill: So my vote for a play in the top right is the underneath attachment, . In this sequence, note , which is further away from than the usual b. Even better, perhaps, for is a in the top left corner. All in all, seems awkwardly placed in relation to the top right corner, so maybe it would have been better to enclose that corner with .
Dave: I would expect White to play something like this in response to . I think this allows White to make a better relationship along the top.
Bill: does not force here, and Black should tenuki, I think. Maybe a? And, as I suggested, maybe Black should play in the top left corner before the top right corner. :)
Dieter: Having played , I agree with both your analyses. My argument for was not to put all eggs in one basket, being the right side, but I soon regretted because of its one-sided pincer function: there are little prospects at the top.
Herman Hiddema: I would not have chosen to play 12, it feels like the kind of move that tries to achieve two purposes, yet achieves neither of them well. If feels too far away to really help white in the top left, but also too far away to effectively attack the lone black stone at the top. I would be unhappy with the result of 13-20. Despite having two stones in this corner (including 12), white has ended up with a relatively small corner and black has taken sente. If 13-20 had happened before playing 12, then playing 12 after that seems wrong, which leads me to conclude that it is misplaced after 20 (so perhaps my move 20 was a mistake, given that 12 already stabilizes this group. However, if after 19 I had to choose between playing 12 or playing 20, I would play 20.
Ryzours Well, I was afraid playing 12 one step to the right would induce a jump from , and one step to the left would let black have too much of the side. Maybe 12 should be on the third line, so that 20 isn't needed anymore? Or is it just a plain mistake?
Herman Hiddema: I would, I think, have chosen to play in the bottom right corner. I still consider the white stones in the top right to be light, especially with the two point jump made there. That would lead me to play tenuki, and because black has a two to one advantage in the bottom right, moving there is big. (A simple metric from Yang Yilun: If in a corner you have one stone, then if your opponent also has one, it is not urgent, if he has two, it is urgent, and if he has three it is no longer urgent.)
kokiri - the top left looks pretty good for black - the move I would question is 16 - there was a series in the BGA go journal in which the proverb was restated as something like 'crosscut- extend, unless there are other stones near by,' and it seems a little soft on black, somehow. If White 12 were one space to the left, it would allow white to play more strongly in the corner.
kb: Normally we extend in the direction we need the most help, but we also must put this next move into context. The combination of and make the top less worth taking, even considering White's two right stones and the 3-3 point in the bottom left. In addition, development along the bottom is limited by .
Joseki says there are moves at a through d here - you can look at a joseki dictionary for all of their uses -- but actually it seems White a is simplest and looks good in this context.
kb: Both stones are working - the high stone at the top limiting influence (maybe too close to the wall, but there is an open skirt at the top) and the 3-3 stone at the bottom left destroying potential on the left side.
kokiri - thanks for explaining; it was not lost on me that i had questioned but not provided an alternative... In this sequence, the a, b, c exchange feels a little painful, can white not play at W0 before to prevent this?
kb: Sure, something like this:
kb: This way, White must be very careful, because Black is very thick here and can probably get some sort of splitting attack going. I'm not completely sure how to evaluate this position, but I think that I would prefer Black.
kb: Black can also play this way, sacrificing to close off the open side, but then ends up at a good point to threaten to cut off two stones, so Black must defend at - leaving lots of peeping aji - so Black is not as thick as it looks.
unkx80: In V2, there's always the possibility of cutting at a (hoping to give away three White stones in exchange for the two Black stones including ).
kb: Move 37 was played at a. I can't help but think that this move is a little nice to White. Black's shape with the stones is very strong, and Black must do something with .
kb: I think a cut is reasonable here. There are a few ways to do it. Stronger players, please discuss.
unkx80: I don't think this cut is even possible, unless you meant to cut at a.
unkx80: If White does not have a good response to this, then I agree that this might be a better way of cutting. =)
kb: I'm putting these in here, but I think both of them are bad. Maybe #3 is okay but #4 is very bad.
ap: It seems a critical moment for black. I agree that a cut is called for, but it must be done with some finesse in order to not hurt the stones. In part, this is a consequence of black's earlier footsweep: if the footsweep stone had been at x instead, there would have been less pressure on white at the bottom, but black would have a stronger shape with relative to the top.
Tapir: Bill entered the white framework with - hinting that this might be an overplay and commenting later that white was happy with the result. So, is there any other way black can play here?
Tapir: White 72 one line lower than a would have made the group more stable. Doesn't white have an easy game now? How can Black attack the marked stones profitably?
unkx80: at a line lower feels somewhat unsatisfying from White's point of view. Isn't there a way for White to make use of the aji at b or c so that White can play at a?
fractic: I don't think the aji at b or c is that big. Maybe if white plays an exchange like d for e first? I think in the game was excellent timing.
Tapir: Can't black answer d at f forcing white to connect and preventing the white base?
fractic: Yes of course. Black e would be to submissive, f is much better.
unkx80: After I thought that Black might have a small advantage. However, to gave it all away, allowing White to get the big points at , , and also as well. Where should each of these Black moves be played?
Tapir: I thought , , aimed at making a center territory - alone denied this... so one might say white had two free moves here.
Herman Hiddema: Agree, , and were all slack, and allow white to come back from a slight disadvantage.
unkx80: B113 was played at a. Should it be played at instead?
Herman Hiddema: I think B113 was wrong. a will be sente for white at some point, threatening to cut off , but achieves little for black at the moment. I don't think is the correct move though, b seems bigger. prevents a push or a monkey jump, but b enables a monkey jump (giving black the option of mutual damage) while also preventing a connection for white.
Dieter: In retrospect, should have been here instead of at a. stressed the central thickness balance and could draw a second purpose from , that of cutting a thinned group, adding it to its endgame value on the lower left. a was too small in scale to benefit from .
Herman Hiddema: Agree, is very big. a may threaten cutting in the center, but white 116 at is a perfect dual purpose move, making points while removing the aji of the central cut.
unkx80: B117 was played at . I am not sure whether playing B117 at here would be a better move? The difference is in the strength of the stones. By allowing White a, these stones seem to be quite a bit weaker.
unkx80: B119 was played at a. It should have been played at to get sente, and then probably grab a big point at .
Tapir: Since your comment was "to keep the game going" I actually thought it was meant to allow white a comeback.
Tapir: White got both a and b and the huge follow-up c. On the right is the game outcome, in the middle a probable result with black at a first and answering b. Alone a makes a difference of 10 points (= 5 points in miai counting?) on the edge not mentioning that white has to connect his otherwise eyeless group towards the left for extra profit of several points. White 120 at b is sente in my opinion, after c the marked 7 points (6 territory + 1 prisoner) are even a conservative estimate not considering the white follow-up at d (so ??? points in miai counting).