Ongoing Game 4 / Review

Sub-page of OngoingGame4

kb: This is the place for reviewing Ongoing Game 4. Anyone is welcome to start with questions, comments, or diagrams.

Table of contents Table of diagrams
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 1 - 10
Alternative for Black 7
Alternative for Black 9
Alternative for Black 9, 2
Alternative for Black 9, 2: Variation
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 11 - 20
Alternative for White 16
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v1
Alternative for White 16 - White 20, push
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v2
Alternative for White 16 - White at ''a'' - Black v2, 2
Move 37 analysis
Alternative for Move 37: 1
Alternative for Move 37: 1
Alternative for Move 37: 2
Alternative for Move 37: 3
Alternative for Move 37: 4
Move 37 analysis
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 59+60
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 63 - 64
Ongoing Game 4 - Move 72 changed
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 111 - 120
Move 113
Move 115
Move 117
Move 119
Ongoing Game 4 - Some counting

Opening

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 1 - 10  

Herman Hiddema: I'll start then. Not too much to say about this diagram. The situation after W4 has occurred many times in pro play, where the most common continuation for black was to make a shimari in the upper right. Approaching the upper left is also an option however, and B5 has been played (Awaji Shuzo (W) vs. Yo Kagen (B) in the 25th Kisei in 2000). B7 is perhaps a bit unusual, but I do not think that there is generally anything much wrong with these first 10 moves. I would surmise that this is the kind of situatuion where even professionals would be hard pressed to say anything specific about the position. All the stones are high and far apart. (Feels like a Shin-fuseki game :-)


Move 6

Note: Tapir is referring here to a comment made during the game, see phpwiki:?OngoingGame4:v13, which is also discussed at OngoingGame4/Discussion#diag51

Tapir: W6 (which happens to be played by me) seems somehow to be the first controversial move - being the first move questioned on the discussion page and labeled "wrong move" in the reasoning for W8. On what terms is it questionable / wrong? My impression after move 21 (at a) was, that the black stones are overall working better together and black is ahead considerably. My second thought was that this might be the result of the hidden quarrel between white players, resulting in less overall consistency - i.e. disregarding the supposed wrong move. My third thought is that it might be more important to make even the dubious moves work, which may lose some points than losing sight of direction / whole board issues by disregarding them. I very much like B7 which ends up being a double purpose move.

Herman Hiddema: There was nothing particularly wrong with W6, the comment made at W8 is unduly harsh, the magic sword is but one of many variations that can occur from that position.


Move 7

[Diagram]
Alternative for Black 7  

kb: I played B7 - I was trying to make good balance with B5, but many players have critiqued the location that B7 ended up on (see the comments on Move9). I think now that tenuki from the bottom right is correct because of the strong position of B1 and W4 - Black is not sure at the moment which response move in the bottom right to play - so playing elsewhere first is fine. Opening theory says that the value of a shimari and kakari are roughly equal (without any context). My vote is this B7. I eschew B7 at a because I expect White's response to be in the bottom right corner. Thoughts?

Tapir: As I wrote above I did like B7, especially after move 21 it looks good to my 3k eyes. Since stronger players are critical...

kokiri: I like the idea of a pincer with B7, but might make it closer than the game. Anyway, playing as in this diagram makes the idea of a black pincer now even more attractive, so I guess white needs to move to forestall the possibility. As white I think I would play W8 simply at c, becuase I'm not sure of a clear way of playing in the corner starting with b.


Move 9

[Diagram]
Alternative for Black 9  

Dave: I think I would choose this B9 over the move played in the game. I think this makes better use of the marked Black stone (Black 7 in the game). If we imagine White answering as shown, Black retains sente to play first in the upper left or continue to play against the White stone in the lower right. Black's stones are more closely linked. The three-space pincer that Black played in the bottom right is not bad but it is not as severe as the two-space pincer would have been. In the game, after White and Black exchange jumps down the side from the upper right corner, I have the feeling that Black has not gotten full value from the marked stone.

Bill: I agree with Dave that this makes better use of black+circle than actual play. But I think that it still leaves black+circle misplaced. I would want to play it further from Black's strong corner.

[Diagram]
Alternative for Black 9, 2  

Bill: So my vote for a play in the top right is the underneath attachment, B9. In this sequence, note B13, which is further away from black+circle than the usual b. Even better, perhaps, for B9 is a in the top left corner. All in all, black+circle seems awkwardly placed in relation to the top right corner, so maybe it would have been better to enclose that corner with B7.

[Diagram]
Alternative for Black 9, 2: Variation  

Dave: I would expect White to play something like this in response to B9. I think this allows White to make a better relationship along the top.

Bill: W12 does not force B13 here, and Black should tenuki, I think. Maybe a? And, as I suggested, maybe Black should play in the top left corner before the top right corner. :)


Dieter: Having played B9, I agree with both your analyses. My argument for B9 was not to put all eggs in one basket, being the right side, but I soon regretted B9 because of its one-sided pincer function: there are little prospects at the top.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 11 - 20  

Move 12

Herman Hiddema: I would not have chosen to play 12, it feels like the kind of move that tries to achieve two purposes, yet achieves neither of them well. If feels too far away to really help white in the top left, but also too far away to effectively attack the lone black stone at the top. I would be unhappy with the result of 13-20. Despite having two stones in this corner (including 12), white has ended up with a relatively small corner and black has taken sente. If 13-20 had happened before playing 12, then playing 12 after that seems wrong, which leads me to conclude that it is misplaced after 20 (so perhaps my move 20 was a mistake, given that 12 already stabilizes this group. However, if after 19 I had to choose between playing 12 or playing 20, I would play 20.

Ryzours Well, I was afraid playing 12 one step to the right would induce a jump from black+square, and one step to the left would let black have too much of the side. Maybe 12 should be on the third line, so that 20 isn't needed anymore? Or is it just a plain mistake?

Herman Hiddema: I would, I think, have chosen to play in the bottom right corner. I still consider the white stones in the top right to be light, especially with the two point jump made there. That would lead me to play tenuki, and because black has a two to one advantage in the bottom right, moving there is big. (A simple metric from Yang Yilun: If in a corner you have one stone, then if your opponent also has one, it is not urgent, if he has two, it is urgent, and if he has three it is no longer urgent.)


Move 16

kokiri - the top left looks pretty good for black - the move I would question is 16 - there was a series in the BGA go journal in which the proverb was restated as something like 'crosscut- extend, unless there are other stones near by,' and it seems a little soft on black, somehow. If White 12 were one space to the left, it would allow white to play more strongly in the corner.

[Diagram]
Alternative for White 16  

kb: Normally we extend in the direction we need the most help, but we also must put this next move into context. The combination of black+circle and white+circle make the top less worth taking, even considering White's two right stones and the 3-3 point in the bottom left. In addition, development along the bottom is limited by white+square.
Joseki says there are moves at a through d here - you can look at a joseki dictionary for all of their uses -- but actually it seems White a is simplest and looks good in this context.

[Diagram]
Alternative for White 16 - White at a - Black v1  

kb: Both white+circle stones are working - the high stone at the top limiting influence (maybe too close to the wall, but there is an open skirt at the top) and the 3-3 stone at the bottom left destroying potential on the left side.

kokiri - thanks for explaining; it was not lost on me that i had questioned W6 but not provided an alternative... In this sequence, the a, b, c exchange feels a little painful, can white not play at W0 before B5 to prevent this?

kb: Sure, something like this:

[Diagram]
Alternative for White 16 - White 20, push  

kb: This way, White must be very careful, because Black is very thick here and can probably get some sort of splitting attack going. I'm not completely sure how to evaluate this position, but I think that I would prefer Black.

[Diagram]
Alternative for White 16 - White at a - Black v2  
[Diagram]
Alternative for White 16 - White at a - Black v2, 2  

kb: Black can also play this way, sacrificing black+circle to close off the open side, but then white+circle ends up at a good point to threaten to cut off two stones, so Black must defend at B8 - leaving lots of peeping aji - so Black is not as thick as it looks.

unkx80: In V2, there's always the possibility of W5 cutting at a (hoping to give away three White stones in exchange for the two Black stones including B2).


Middle game

Move 37

[Diagram]
Move 37 analysis  

kb: Move 37 was played at a. I can't help but think that this move is a little nice to White. Black's shape with the black+square stones is very strong, and Black must do something with black+circle.


kb: I think a cut is reasonable here. There are a few ways to do it. Stronger players, please discuss.

[Diagram]
Alternative for Move 37: 1  
[Diagram]
Alternative for Move 37: 1  

unkx80: I don't think this cut is even possible, unless you meant B7 to cut at a.

[Diagram]
Alternative for Move 37: 2  

unkx80: If White does not have a good response to this, then I agree that this might be a better way of cutting. =)


kb: I'm putting these in here, but I think both of them are bad. Maybe #3 is okay but #4 is very bad.

[Diagram]
Alternative for Move 37: 3  
[Diagram]
Alternative for Move 37: 4  
[Diagram]
Move 37 analysis  

ap: It seems a critical moment for black. I agree that a cut is called for, but it must be done with some finesse in order to not hurt the black+square stones. In part, this is a consequence of black's earlier footsweep: if the footsweep stone had been at x instead, there would have been less pressure on white at the bottom, but black would have a stronger shape with black+square relative to the top.


Move 59

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 59+60  

Tapir: Bill entered the white framework with B59 - hinting that this might be an overplay and commenting later that white was happy with the result. So, is there any other way black can play here?


Move 63

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 63 - 64  

Bill: After B63 W64 makes black+circle mochikomi. Instead, the jump to a is shape. Then Black can answer W64 at b. Black then also threatens either B63 or c.


Move 72

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Move 72 changed  

Tapir: White 72 one line lower than a would have made the group more stable. Doesn't white have an easy game now? How can Black attack the marked stones profitably?

unkx80: W72 at a line lower feels somewhat unsatisfying from White's point of view. Isn't there a way for White to make use of the aji at b or c so that White can play at a?

fractic: I don't think the aji at b or c is that big. Maybe if white plays an exchange like d for e first? I think B73 in the game was excellent timing.

Tapir: Can't black answer d at f forcing white to connect and preventing the white base?

fractic: Yes of course. Black e would be to submissive, f is much better.


Endgame

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 111 - 120  

unkx80: After B1 I thought that Black might have a small advantage. However, B3 to B9 gave it all away, allowing White to get the big points at W4, W6, W8 and also W10 as well. Where should each of these Black moves be played?

Tapir: I thought B3, B5, B7 aimed at making a center territory - W8 alone denied this... so one might say white had two free moves here.

Herman Hiddema: Agree, black+square, B5 and B7 were all slack, and allow white to come back from a slight disadvantage.


Move 113

[Diagram]
Move 113  

unkx80: B113 was played at a. Should it be played at B1 instead?

Herman Hiddema: I think B113 was wrong. a will be sente for white at some point, threatening to cut off black+circle, but achieves little for black at the moment. I don't think B1 is the correct move though, b seems bigger. B1 prevents a push or a monkey jump, but b enables a monkey jump (giving black the option of mutual damage) while also preventing a connection for white.


Move 115

[Diagram]
Move 115  

Dieter: In retrospect, B5 should have been here instead of at a. black+circle stressed the central thickness balance and B5 could draw a second purpose from black+circle, that of cutting a thinned group, adding it to its endgame value on the lower left. a was too small in scale to benefit from black+circle.

Herman Hiddema: Agree, B5 is very big. a may threaten cutting in the center, but white 116 at B5 is a perfect dual purpose move, making points while removing the aji of the central cut.


Move 117

[Diagram]
Move 117  

unkx80: B117 was played at W2. I am not sure whether playing B117 at B1 here would be a better move? The difference is in the strength of the black+circle stones. By allowing White a, these stones seem to be quite a bit weaker.


Move 119

[Diagram]
Move 119  

unkx80: B119 was played at a. It should have been played at B1 to get sente, and then probably grab a big point at B3.

Tapir: Since your comment was "to keep the game going" I actually thought it was meant to allow white a comeback.

[Diagram]

Ongoing Game 4 - Some counting

Tapir: White got both a and b and the huge follow-up c. On the right is the game outcome, in the middle a probable result with black at a first and answering b. Alone a makes a difference of 10 points (= 5 points in miai counting?) on the edge not mentioning that white has to connect his otherwise eyeless group towards the left for extra profit of several points. White 120 at b is sente in my opinion, after c the marked 7 points (6 territory + 1 prisoner) are even a conservative estimate not considering the white follow-up at d (so ??? points in miai counting).



Ongoing Game 4 / Review last edited by bootmii on January 10, 2014 - 08:04
RecentChanges · StartingPoints · About
Edit page ·Search · Related · Page info · Latest diff
[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]
RecentChanges
StartingPoints
About
RandomPage
Search position
Page history
Latest page diff
Partner sites:
Go Teaching Ladder
Goproblems.com
Login / Prefs
Tools
Sensei's Library