Wishes, requests, FAQ... and similar for the European Go Database.
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Charlie: Right now when you look at a player's list of games they appear to be in chronological order with the most recent game at the top of the list, which makes sense. However, on closer inspection it turns out that they are listed with the most recent 'tournament' at the top of the list and then in an opposite chronological order within the tournament, starting with round 1 etc. There is currently no way to put the 'games' in chronological order. This makes for a messy list IMO, and it seems to me the intention was to put them in chronological order. Can we at least make it possible to order them like that? That would be helpful if one wants to monitor progression over time or write a script to calculate how one is doing in a national rating system that is not based on GoR. Thank you.
tapir: Sorting according to placement evidently just compares strings thus making 110th place a better placement than 14th and that one better than 2nd place. it would be better to cut the string with the "/" and process the remaining placement as integer for sorting purposes.
I think it could measure strength of go club (or country) better than average GoR... Thanx!
It would be nice to just have one more column in the table where you can see the list of all opponents one player met during his go career. The 3 last columns are "won", "lost", "jigo". I would add a column called "total" which would just be the sum of these 3 columns. The idea is that when you sort descending by this column, you can see which player(s) you played the most and can be called your "rival(s) in tournament".
tapir: It would be nice if there would be some indication in the list, in case there where handicap games between the players. Like 4(1) - 4 games of which 1 was handicapped.
Simply show the Number of new Players (first Tournament)
I often go into the pages for particular players – myself, family members, & players I know. Then sometimes I want to go back to one of these previous pages – maybe to compare. However, it's not easy to see which page to go back to, as they all say things like:
E.G.D. - European Go Database | Main panel
Now, what I'd suggest is that instead they should read "EGD - 1674 John Doe", "EGD - 1652 Jane Doe", "EGD - 1632 Johnnie Dow", "EGD 1502 - Freda Bloggs", where the nnnn is the GoR.
This way, it'd be easy to compare players you know, & flick between their pages. Also, I'd imagine that this would be a simple change? Does anybody support this idea? Many thanks, Martin, a BGA Go-captive.
Request dated the 5th of January, 2014.
P.J.Traill: Seconded, 2018-12-17 (though I think the club would be better than the GoR) – This would be helpful, not just in one’s browser history but also for creating bookmarks.
Similarly, tournament pages should include the tournament name and other pages could probably be enhanced as well.
GoR variation shouldn't omit the plus sign.
hyperpapeterie: Hope this isn't my ignorance, or a request someone else has made on here, but is there no way to show all players (including non-european players) in a single list, sorted by current rating?
tapir: The main list is basically a list of all players (with ratings according to European tournaments or tournaments with significant European participation). That's why WAGC etc. data is included. As far as I know this is the standard list shown to you on the EGD page.
hyperpapeterie: If I go to http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/EGF_rating_system.php, the option for all european players excludes some players (e.g. Kyoungnang Kang). The only other option I know of is to sort under the players page, which produces too many extraneous results (i.e. professionals who have never played in Europe). Were you thinking of a different list?
tapir: Just click on the submit button without any option and sort by GoR. ( here) Add or don't add the EGF only option. Seems you don't want this as well. But the reason is http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?&key=14733873, that she gives Korea, Seoul as residence. So there is no data in the database to divide her from those unwanted extraneous results.
hyperpapeterie: Thanks for letting me know that this option is the closest to what I want. I believe that there is a workable way to get the result I want based on the data in the database. You could filter for all and only players who have played a tournament in an EGF country. Perhaps there would be complications in implementing this, but I believe it would achieve the desired result of showing all players who compete in Europe.
kaiou: I wish to be able to search in the whole name+surname string, because composite names, like "AA van CC", are sometimes split as AA+van_CC, sometimes as AA_van+CC. It is often a problem to search for people with spaces in their names. It would be nice to use spaces instead of underscores (or both), too. Of course, these are not critical issues at all.
P.J.Traill: When one makes a comparison chart for various players, the result still has the URL of the query page ( http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/chart_comparison.php) so one cannot bookmark a comparison of particular players. Could this be adjusted, so we can bookmark specific comparison charts? The page title should ideally also include the players’ names.
N.B.: lastname OR country are required
Herman: Could more of the EGD be implemented as GET (as opposed to POST) requests? Right now, there are many pages that could easily be linked to directly with URL parameters if only GET were used instead of POST (e.g.: http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Stats_Country.php?country_code=NL&club=Delf doesn't work, but there is no reason not to let it work).
Also, on a more formal note, the HTTP standard says that GET request should be safe (should not alter the state of the server), whereas POST requests can be unsafe (can alter the state of the server). Because of this, browsers should (and do) consider it unsafe to reload pages that were the result of a POST request (e.g.: go to the stats page for any club, then click reload, your browser should pop up a warning, asking for confirmation).
Herman Ahah, there is a secret parameter! :-)
- Flatline: EGD is a chamber of secrets ;-)
Herman: With the introduction of four letter club abbreviations, a lot of the functionality for clubs is currently broken. If, for example, I want to generate a list of members and ratings for my club, Delft, I will find 12 of them under the abbreviation "Del" and four of them under "Delf". If I generate statistics for NL/Del, I get a nice graph of active players. But generating the same statistics page for NL/Delf, the graph is broken (due to there only being one year of data, I guess). But the bigger issue really is that there shouldn't be two pages for this at all. "Del" and "Delf" are the same club, so I'd like to see the statistics for players marked with either "Del" or Delf" together. Is there any plan to fix this? Perhaps by automatically converting old club abbreviations to new ones (so change "Del" to "Delf" for all older results, and convert it automatically for new results entered into the database). I would be more than happy to provide a list of Dutch clubs with "Old" -> "New" abbreviations, and I'm sure there's people all over Europe willing to do the same for their own country.
tapir: It is just a big mess. (I sometimes want to look for clubs, compare clubs, player populations, look for players... this doesn't work anymore with the degree of randomness in club abbreviations right now.) Or more constructively, how can we help to correct this mess?
jon: Please can we display the name of the club rather than the club code whenever it's displayed?
We should also use the name of a club for a lookup, rather than the code, although this is rather more difficult to implement.
The 3/4 character code should not appear on the user interface, except for admin purposes.
tapir: I just looked at some statistics, it seems that it divides lower-case and upper-case spellings of the club abbreviations doubling some entries. E.g. "Win" in CH and "win" in CH, doubtless there are more elsewhere.
Herman Sometimes, is useful for an event to be split into multiple events in the database. This already happens, for example, with the European Go Congress. The EGC is split into "first week" and "second week", which allows the weekend tournament to be processed between those two events. This has the disadvantage, however, that the EGD does not contain the wall list for the whole 10 round main tournament, even though it is a single event from a McMahon/Pairing point of view. It would be nice if the EGC (and possibly other events), could be entered as a single event, but with the added option to specify that it should be split over multiple dates. So in case of the EGC, some option to say "rounds 1-5 should count on date A, rounds 6-10 should count on date B". So in the database, it is visible as a single event, with 10 rounds, but for ratings calculation, it is split into two events in the background...
tapir: I don't know these players and everything might be alright, but ... not to mention the famous clubs xxx, and xxxx. (Of course it is easy to err on the other side as well as happened to me in my first tournament.)
15262148 Brakmann Nils DE BN 9k 1125 4 0 15237728 Brackmann Nils DE BN 13k 811 1 0
10686126 Groenefeld Martin DE BN 2k 1735 41 2245 12998975 Gruenefeld Martin DE BN 2k 1836 1 0
tapir: I noticed another far more important data quality issue, I understand nationality is meant as the country of the go club, as there is no way to search for clubs regardless of country, i.e. both fields belong together, however, I know people who (will) start to give their local club but their real nationality. This will mess up EGD data, as soon as you try to look at club level or how many clubs there are in a country etc.
Can some guidance be offered on the correct value for the Country Field. Should it be
Country is sometimes used for calculating the amount of money a Federation should pay to the EGF, and sometimes used for calculating the PairGo points a Federation will receive. I think this means it should be treated in a standardized way during the tournament submission process. There are problems though, since a player can have multiple nationalities and multiple federation memberships.
P.J.Traill: Certainly applies to me ( 10433489), a Briton living in Germany who plays just across the border in the Netherlands (de Go Splinter in Venlo); I am not currently a member of any federation, but am inclined to join the Dutch and maybe German federations. Come to think of it, I have German nationality as well since 2018-09-13. In fact, all these data can vary with time.
Herman: At the moment, the EGD contains tournaments that are ranked A, B or C, depending on their thinking time. Is it an option to have a tournament class for tournaments with shorter thinking times, which would not count for the rating at all, but could still be uploaded? The purpose would be to have an archive of such tournaments. The reason I am asking is because someone on the Dutch go mailing list asked about the Dutch tournament archive (on the website of the Dutch go association). I would point him to the EGD, where he can easily find any tournaments played in the Netherlands, but realized that that is not actually true. Certain events will not be in the EGD because of their limited thinking time, despite being noteworthy tournaments. I would like, for example, to add the results of the Dutch lightning championships to such a category.
The Shusaku number is known for some players in the EGD. Therefore, it is possible to calculate a (maximum) Shusaku number for other players based on tournaments automatically. Would be nice to have.
Jouni: It would be nice if there were a possibility to have declared ranks updated between tournaments. This would help pairings because up to date info could be retrieved directly from EGD with OpenGotha. Now direct usage of GoR for pairing is little tricky because we need to adjust possible pre-tournament resets by hand and there are possible cases where this is even impossible. Pairing with GoR should be essential especially in EGC because there are lots of Japanese and others who participate with nonsense ranks, but often their GoRs are already quite close after few congresses.
This would be a great feature, because the problem is quite significant at the EGC. I think that there would be enough control if registered and trusted EGD users could adjust declared ranks if needed. With Finnish ranks it would be easy because we have a very practical common Wiki which is always kept up to date with official rank and tournament info. ( http://www.suomigo.net/wiki/Luokituslista) A similar wiki approach would work with EGD too, I think. Even though there are various degrees of rank liberalism in different European countries. (2009-12-01)
RobertJasiek: What is called the "declared rank" is not the declared rank but the rank that is either the player's declared rank or the tournament organisers' declaration of what they want / enforce to declare as the rank for the players. This should be made clear in the players' rating graphs.
Lovro Furjanic – Sorry, I did not know where to post this. Is there any possibility that, when someone posts a tournament late, you lose rating? Let me explain. Suppose, in tournament A you get x points, but it is not (yet) submitted to the EGD. Then you play tournament B and get y points, where both x and y are positive, and B **is** submitted to the EGD. After that, A (which was held earlier) is submitted to the EGD. Is there any chance, that although you won in both tournaments, your GoR drops after A is submitted because your profit on B got smaller as your GoR increased from A, and the margin by which it decreased is bigger than one by which it increased after A? Sorry if I confused you...
Phelan: From what I understand, it doesn't matter when the tournaments are sent to the EGD. I don't really know how to explain it, but when the system runs after getting the new tournament(A), it will calculate the GoR change in tournament B based on the GoR the player has after A.
Lovro Furjanic - That’s exactly what I am talking about. If can your GoR from A increase less than your GoR decreases after you get lesser points B. I don’t really know if you understand me :)
tapir: As far as I understand the system, the answer is a clear ‘yes’. I doubt however that if you won more than a handful of points you will end up losing points, but if you won 3 rating points in the first computation you may well end losing some points after some older tournaments are computed as well. But usually you add new tournaments to the database not old ones.
Since a winning expectancy below zero makes no sense, epsilon should be removed from that formula and be applied directly to the rating adjustment formula.
This is not something which can be implemented by a computer program, but instead something that should be done consistently by all EGF federations. Imagine the scenario where a 10kyu enters a tournament and beats all his opponents who we will imagine to be 10kyu, 8kyu, 7kyu, 5kyu, and 4kyu. There exist at least 3 different ways in which this 10kyu is treated, each of which has a different effect on the ratings.
Normally, or perhaps ideally, there should be only 1 treatment of this player's rank.