Difficulty: Expert   Keywords: Joseki, Question
Two non-joseki moves  

I played a game today against a 3dan. He played two odd corner sequences, one starting from a 5-4 point and the other starting with a 4-4 point. The two black+circle stones are non-joseki moves; in the post game discussion neither me nor my opponent managed to come up with very effective responses. A database search didn't produce anything insightful either (the move in the 5-4 point sequence is found once in GoGoD, the other one not at all.

So, any ideas?

Continuation A  

This is how we continued in the upper right, but black+circle has more aji than in the more common sequence where Black exchanges a for b.

Dave: Better to ask what is the "more aji" and whether it is worth more than giving up the 3-3 point to White in gote? I think White plays away here and is very happy with the situation. Whatever happens later will be more fun for White than Black.

Charles W1 at c can't be bad?

Bill: That was my impression. However:

Continuation B  

After B2 Black threatens Ba with the connection at b for backup. White has bad aji. White has the same problem when black+circle is at c, as Jiang Jujo and Rui NaiWei point out in New Joseki Around the World (Sekai no Shinjoseki), part 1.

Continuation A1  

Bill: What about W3? It looks slow, but White is thick and black+circle is mochikomi, isn't it?


Klaus: but in the usual joseki, W6 here is not an interesting move, because white is already stable, so if the exchange a for b would ensure white playing W6 this is fine for black! What is worse for white, the captured stone might still be useful in combination with a move at x

Dave: Your analysis is based on the idea that White will answer a with a play at b. To my eye this order of moves lets us see that the play at a is very odd. Why should White answer it directly? If White plays at all, how about starting at c to see how Black will answer? It is likely that White can trap a on a large scale, making it a wasted play.

Klaus: sorry Dave, but someone messed with my diagram here: I never had B7 in it !! (I changed it back) My argument was: In the Continuation A1 diagram, white has been pushed arround, because, 1) white+circle is a questionable extention in my diagram (W6 here) and 2) b is not the right answer to a, if black played here now. In any case, you seem to agree with me, that W3 in bill's diagram is a mistake.

Dave: I agree about the follow up at b. Your idea of reordering the plays is quite interesting here. However, "comparing" the situation without the black stone at a is incorrect tewari in my opinion. The position with the Black stone at a but without b is the actual game continuation and the basic issue for this page. The question is, "What is the assessment of this play at a and what next for White?"


Bill: Suzuki and Kitani's Small Joseki Dictionary gives this crosscut in a similar position to the one in the bottom left corner. White is probably better off not having made the exchange of white+circle for black+circle before giving up the corner.

Charles Played in a Korean game from 1995, with W7 at B8 to crawl and live. So, it's a pro play.

Bill: Suzuki and Kitani mention that crawl, but it's not available in the question position. (If W7 at white+circle in that position, surely B8.)

BQM197 last edited by DaveSigaty on December 28, 2004 - 12:21
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