Wu Ren Go 3 / White

Sub-page of WuRenGo3

Table of contents

Saurus Soldiers, please leave a new suggestion for every move. Even if you agree with the move given by the previous soldier, leave a new suggestion too. Captains may not choose their own moves, so choices are important!!!


[Diagram]
Moves 91 to 100  



W94: Suggestions

jvloenen decides to resign The enthusiasm (both teams) is too low to continue. As black is ahead, we resign.
q8 (a) doesn't work, so it is too early to choose between the cut at q8 and r9. The same holds for O5 and P6. Maybe we should probe at or around M4 first. If black decides to try to capture, we can fight by forcing at O5 and O6.


W92: Suggestions

  • JoelR: q8 (a). Yes, we can defend, but we need to make something happen. I see the difference between B b3 and Wb2 as about 8pts gote.
  • I like the above idea, but (b)is very big... I feel like I've been stealing all the moves :(
  • Superdave: I'll suggest the safe move then, b2 (c).
  • Dieter: (d) - sorry, I could not resist. I also feel White needs to do something of major caliber. Destroying the shape at the bottom looks like a good start.

jvloenen chooses Q8(a). JoelR is right. Both R16 (b) and B2 (c) are big moves, they feel gote however, as the followup seems too small now. Maybe later. We're still behind. If we follow black we're still behind at the end of the game. So let's try something and play Q8 (a). It may not do much locally, maybe it's gonna help us to reduce around M4 later. Let's find out. I don't understand G3 (d), black probably plays F4. Or am I missing something?

[Diagram]
What?  

[Diagram]
Moves 81 to 90  



W90: Suggestions

  • ZeroWave sadly, we have to defend at S3(a)... then we need to show a splendid endgame to make a comeback.
  • JoelR: If we don't defend, what happens? Black s2 leads to ko, and s3 lets us live. I say we take sente now, at q8. Depending on black's response, we can make something happen with q6 or p9.
  • schEkkEr I agree with taking sente, but as always I'm stumped at where to begin ^^ How about o5 (c)?

tapir chooses S3(a). Defend first. I honestly don't see how Black S3 lets us live Joel, the corner looks plain dead to me. I like the idea of Q8 (b), but think we have to defend first, if we had a definite way to ascertain a living corner in sente by playing the moves around Q8 or O5 it might be better, but then there would be no funny business left and little hope for us to come back.


JoelR: My reads on not defending at s3. Is there a tesuji I overlooked?

[Diagram]
ko  

(Dieter: I did not want to intervene, but now you're asking specifically, I thought that below diagrams indeed lead to life, but this one here is not ko: it's death, after Black defends below B1.)

[Diagram]
life  

(Dieter again: indeed, this attack misfires, but IMO there is a double ko involved.)

[Diagram]
life?  


Tapir: So embarassing, I chose the right move for the wrong reason. I didn't really read further ... very bad habit.

[Diagram]
That is what I had in mind...  

W88: Suggestions

  • ZeroWave hope none is mad at me taking the liberty (hehe..) of updating here. I really hoped they wouldn't play there... but no choice. I suggest hane, and then S4. So the suggestion is: r3 (a).
  • dave: ZeroWave, do you mean r2 then s3? I'll let you add the (a) where you want it to be, and I'll suggest O5 (b).
  • JoelR: I'll suggest (c) s6, for mutual damage. I thought we were losing before, and we've gotten slapped around these past few moves. I suggest resigning.

jvloenen chooses R2 (a). As O5 (b) doesn't work, we better keep it in reserve in case we get a stone around M4 or Q8/R8. S6 (c) doesn't seem to do much damage to black I as far as I can see. After S6 we still have defend at R2, so better play R2 now.
JoelR suggested to resign. As we are with three soldiers, I will resign if at least two soldiers suggest to resign on the same move.


W86: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr b10 (a). Basic instinct.
  • ZeroWave agreed with above. is there a reason why we haven't played our move yet..? I also hope there isn't any problem with me joining this team. ^^

Welcome to the team ZeroWave! We didn't play yet because there was nothing to choose with only one suggestion. It is taking too long however, so I play B10 now and hope the game will continue somewhat faster. Otherwise we better stop this game (by resigning of course).
jvloenen chooses B10 (a). Of all suggestions given it is the best play by far. ;-) With free play I had played another move however, especially after the bad move W84 (which is almost a wasted move as it doesn't give us eye-shape or even an extra liberty).


W84: Suggestions

  • dave: R5 (a).
  • JoelR: K12 (b). I agree with (a), it looks double sente, but I'm supposed to make another suggestion.

jvloenen chooses R5 (a). Only move (from the moves suggested). What will happen if black plays R2 now?


W82: Suggestions

  • dave: R16(a).
  • Pashley: Q5 (b), link up two weak groups
  • JoelR: C3 (c), coming back to the big point.

jvloenen chooses C3 (c). All suggestions are gote, so we play the biggest point.

JoelR: I guess W80 can be treated as sente, because

[Diagram]
White first, tenuki  

is still better than

[Diagram]
Black first  
[Diagram]
Looking for sente  

Tapir: Although I agree with the analysis. The W1 in this diagram would have been a clearer way to gain sente while reducing the size of a black move in the corner. At least that's the move I would have played. Probably doesn't make much difference.


Moves 71 to 80

[Diagram]
Moves 71 to 80  



W80: Suggestions

  • JoelR: S16 (a). Time to guess what the captain wants. I didn't see a sure path to a live group starting with O9, but surely the continuation was either N10 or P10. At the very least, we could have pushed one point further in in sente.
  • dave: C3 (b). I'll suggest the safe move for a fallback in case we don't guess what the captain wants.

Only two suggestions? Ok, let's play S16 (a). A move in this corner is what we need indeed. If we play the very large and honte move C3 (b), black will play S17 and will be 15 points ahead. We need to play a sente move in this corner before returning to C3, after which black will be ahead by about 5 points.
If this move isn't sente, a mutual reduction will follow. As the black area is larger than ours, we should welcome this.
JoelR, W76 en W78 were played like ko threats, as we needed a (non-suggested) move in the upper corner. I think W78 is better on P9, because our connection at Q5 is more severe now.


W78: Suggestions

jvloenen chooses P9 (a). There is nothing to gain here. We need to play a large sente move, before returning answering B75 (as we need both moves to make a chance in this game). It wasn't suggested at move 76, so we played a sentish move elsewhere. A local continuation here doesn't make much sense, we're just wasting ko threats.


W76: Suggestions

BobWhoosta: Much as it pains me, it seems a is the biggest point. Letting black play there is serious points, and as of the last move or so we've entered the beginnings of yose. Does anyone have anything to say about my count, or what we can do to try and turn things around if I'm right???

dave: E2 (b).

JoelR: O9 (c). I think we are behind. Jvloenen has rejected N9 and O10, but I do not think we can invade the right side and live.

jvloenen chooses O9(c). No suggestion by schEkkEr, so it's time to move. BobWhoosta counted correct I think. And C3(a) is probably the correct honte point. If we play a and black plays S17 or something like that, we're at least 15 points behind. So we can play calm and loose by 10-20 points. Or we can try something (and probably we have to resign within 10 moves or so, but at least we've tried!). I don't understand E2(b), it just forces black to get E3. Or am I missing something obvious? So let's play O9 and see what happens (remember, we need to make things complicated now).


JoelR: Assuming both sides take the sente moves below, b looks two points better for White. If we take b and Black takes a, what happens? Can they live? Can we damage much?

[Diagram]
comparison a  
[Diagram]
comparison b  


BobWhoosta: Counting and stragetical things.

I count Black at between 90 and 100 points, and white between 85 and 90 points. With Komi that puts white just a hair behind, however black has sente, and further D2 is a large sente point. So as far as I see it, we're about 10 points behind. We've got a big sente move in the top right, however afterwards we probably can't even think about living in black's center area. It may come down to whether we can do that or not, and as it stands this already looks difficult...

What say you??


W74: Suggestions

  • dave: F6 (a)
  • schEkkEr G6 (b)
  • JoelR: (a) is better shape. To put something out there, M9 (c).
  • BobWhoosta For my first suggestion, I'd like to put out something different, but (a) is both the most urgent and best shape point. If I had to suggest something else, it would be (d), treating the L9 stone lightly and probing black's territory. But honestly, I don't think there's enough strength in the area.

jvloenen chooses F6 (a). Welcome to the team BobWhoosta! We need to answer locally. With G6 (b) our shape would be worse, so F6 it is. For M9 (c) and N9 (d), if these moves are sente, black solidifies his territory. The space below these moves is of very little value as both sides cannot create territory here (around M6). So if we have a good game after the next black move, we better force from a side were our forcing moves gives us points in return. And if we're clearly behind and decide to invade we better not have forced with M9 or N9!

  • schEkkEr That's interesting that you prefer a) because of shape. Can you give me a pointer/give a short explanation?
  • tapir: E.g. you can defend against x at y now (and not the line above) which helps the corner. You may even contemplate to ignore it altogether.
  • schEkkEr So it's about the stability of the f5 stone? However, now Black gains a great ko threat with g6; but we consider the better stability more important than the threat that _may_ be important later?
  • jvloenen: tapir is right. The strongest defense against x is tenuki now. And if we want to repond locally, D2 comes into mind. So black will not play at x now. schEkkEr, my idea of this shape: we're left with a cut anyhow. The H6 stone has a helping stone at J7 already, it doesn't need another at G6. So we better help the weakest stone, F5.
  • tapir: We should count in between and adjust our play to the result. As counting gives away all the endgame sequences one has in mind, it is best done by the soldiers.

W72: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr h6 (a). Basic instinct - block the push.
  • JoelR h4. I'm going to suggest this, although I think it falls under OneTwoThree (Wh4, Bg4, Wh6).
  • dave: I like "a" because it helps protect against the possibility the fight in the center will somehow be able to connect below. And I don't see anything else in the immediate area that would be better, so I'll suggest something outlandish, O10 (c) which will either invade the area above or below,

jvloenen chooses H6 (a). H4 (b) doesn't work well, black plays H6 and captures either H6 or J5. If we enter the lower side by forcing at G4, black takes the corner. Tenuki seems a good idea, as H6 is very submissive. O10 (c) is too deep however: there is no way out (black can answer at N9 for instance) and not enough room to live.

  • JoelR. While I agree W2 is submissive, I don't see a way out of it, or of the following gote sequence. The area behind is too big not to defend. For Black's territory, I think we should try to reduce, not invade, e.g., at d, so Black doesn't turn there, and e, which actually looks like it can connect back. Sorry for not seeing these before, but I did think we should play W2.
[Diagram]
Continuation  



Moves 61 to 70

[Diagram]
Moves 61 to 70  



W70: Suggestions

  • JoelR: K12 (a). It looks important to separate 69 from 65, but our last two moves give us a chance to peep at Black's territory and look at cutting off 53 (black+circle).
  • dave: E11 (b). I think it will capture the two black stones, and make our group stronger toward the top.
  • schEkkEr: Cut at F10 (c)! We have the fighting power here, let's use it.
  • Abydos1: D11 (d) - looser than b but helps us along the edge too.
  • eozberk: (c) looks best to me for also aiming (a) later.
  • JoelR: If we do not take a, my preference is for b.

jvloenen chooses E11 (b). K12 (a) tries to capture an important stone, and to me the peep doesn't seem to accomplish much. F10 (c) tries to capture one stone. It is true we have invested a lot of stones and are strong, so why not capture both stones? D11 (d) is a looser move, and I don't see how it helps on the side.
eozberk, please suggest something else even if you support a suggestion given before.


W68: Suggestions

  • JoelR: F10 (a). If Black protects, I would like to drive along the 12th line to divide 65 from 67.
  • Abydos1: B2 is premature here, W3 should probably be at B8.
[Diagram]
Continuation (i) squeeze  


Abydos1: Black at a and we capture 3 stones while giving away the entire center.

JoelR: I thought after abcd we secured the upper left, and leave Black's stones struggling. But I like Abydos's follow up, W3 below B4.

[Diagram]
Continuation (ii) isolates black+circle  


  • schEkkEr F12 (b) to get the option to connect to the top or to keep pushing to the left and disconnect the two black groups. E12 would be the next move, or we would get a double atari and could separate Black. After considering JoelR's move the result look quite similar.
  • Abydos1: B4 at W5 and we're in trouble; the stones in the top left are small.
[Diagram]
schEkkEr variant 1  
[Diagram]
schEkkEr variant 2  


  • tapir: It would be interesting/enlightening to see which continuation you have in mind (say next 5 moves) before deciding upon a move.
  • dave: H12 (c) Make the center group stronger and threaten to cut above them.
  • Abydos1: This is a very complicated situation but I think we have the advantage in fighting here. After spending some time reading this I think a is our best choice and then either capturing the black stone or extending towards the left next. I'll add D11 (d) as an alternative but I think it goes too easy on black. c is going in the wrong direction and b just pushes black towards our weak, lonely stone on the left. The two stones black is threatening to capture here are small compared to the center we're aiming at securing. Here's some of my thoughts on a possible continuation:
  • Abydos1: Bah, this might require more reading... After the W3-B4 exchange below we're short on liberties in the middle and black has plenty with B6 and onward. (Edit: On second though, W3 at B6 is simple but seems a little easy on black...)
[Diagram]
Abydos' thoughts  


tapir chooses F12(b). Tough choice. Basically I don't like to force Black to extend by playing at F10 (a) now. And I would extend there as Black, also if Black tenukies with B2, I would capture (because it makes a big center territory in sente.) There is a diagram where Abydos commented B4 at W5 and we are in trouble, but we have a similar line just with forcing at F10 first given by joelr. However, if Black decides to give us the top stones back, we don't want to strengthen them inside. (Our five stones on the top are not weak, because Black is lacking liberties.)

The general idea is, to either take back on the top left while Black still isn't alive inside or letting him capture two stones and take a big center. However, it pretty complicated for me as well so I may be wrong.

[Diagram]
Black can have only one side. (Here, White probably wants to choose whether to play b or a or sth. else later.)  

W66: Suggestions

  • dave: G12 (a), extend to get more liberties, then we can take advantage of cutting points.
  • schEkkEr I agree with G12, but give G9 (b) as an alternative to start building on the lower left.
  • JoelR (joining the White team): I agree with G12, we cannot let Black get a ponnuki. H12(c), followed by J12, seems the only way to keep the ponnuki separate from the right, just to give a third suggestion. Captains, please play.

tapir chooses G12(a). Sacrificing the stone in gote is not enough and there would have been other territorial moves of at least this size on the board (which may even be sente). It is a cutting stone and should not be thrown away too easily, and even if we sacrifice later, Black will now need a stone more on balance to capture. If Black answers at b, I believe this is a fight we can well afford and where Black survival is far from secure. Forcing Black to make a ponnuki with c is not achieving anything as Black can easily live on the inside with the strength of the ponnuki or even if white tries to rescue c, push once, atari, connect... White ends with two cutting points and is unable to defend both.


W64: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr g12 (a). Stabilize before the cut at h10. If we play g10 immediately, I think they can play f11 and bring the cutting stones on the left back to life and we're left with nothing.
  • Abydos1: H10 (b) - the only move, we don't play W62 if we aren't going to cut here.
  • dave: I also like (b) but I'll suggest J14 (c) first which I think black would answer.

tapir chooses H10(b). Takeo Kajiwara says, we should listen our stones. I feel like I hear G11 crying, it tries to do something but fails so alone. H10 is the only move (even if we end up screwed in the upcoming fight) it makes G11 feel important as only a cutting stone can, G12 forces Black to connect, J14 may well be sente, but a sente which does not help us, but Black in the fight.


W62: Suggestions

  • dave: F11 (a). It looks like black could cause more damage here than we could cause on the right side; this should be a ladder breaker and also attack G10.
  • Abydos1: G11 (b) - cut the large knights move. The c15 stones are unimportant and a just helps black fix his weakness.

tapir chooses G11 (b). I don't know how long we will last in this fight with only two active players making proposals. F11 forces black to strengthen himself which is what Black wants to do anyway - without really making territory in the process. This leaves G11, which likely leads to a very violent fight. I would have been reluctant to start it right now, but now there is no way back. (+ I like it more the longer I look at it.)


Moves 51 to 60

[Diagram]
Moves 51 to 60  



W60: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: L9 (a) - attach to a strong stone to help settle our group; this also makes an attack on B55 easier.
  • Dave: E10 (b) to protect against the invading stones
  • schEkkEr: m6 (c)

jvloenen chooses L9 (a). We attach to create possibilities. We don't need to settle our stones anymore I think. Attacking B55 is a good idea however. E10 (b) is too small I think. It just protects some territory around C8. We need to play more active after black got 53. M6 (c) doesn't do much. It is no severe attack on the lower side. And if black wants to close with a move around M6, we can play Q5.


W58: Suggestions

  • dave: G8 (a)
  • schEkkEr L10 (b) Some sabaki in the center, and a ladder breaker for playing J13 later.
  • Abudos1: J7 (c) - aim to connect W52 out and/or strengthen it so it has an easier time living.

jvloenen chooses J7 (c). Help both W52 and W56, and prepare for cutting of B55 and making a deep invasion to the right, which seems miai. G8 (a) doesn't help our stones much, nor does it take or destroy territory. It will turn out to be dame later on, or (if we get E9 for instance) the territory will be too small for a gote move. L10 (b) seems to be too slow. After the 52/53 exchange our territory around F14 is gone, so we need to be more aggressive and destroy more of black's territory. For a deeper invasion, we better prepare first.


W56: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr h6 (a) to connect to i10 and maybe later be able to attack the bottom
  • dave: J8 (b) to help out the W52 stone
  • Abydos1: J5 (c) - lean on the bottom to help W52, directly answering B55 leads to an easily attackable group in the center and we don't want to help black fix the weakness between B53 & B55.

jvloenen chooses J5(b). J8(b) makes a heavy group. We do not know if we want to run, to makes eyes or to sacrifice yet, so we better do not add stones to this group. H6(a) feels better, but that's too easy for black. So J5 it is, although it is better to not attach a stone. (J6 would be better.)


W54: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F5(a) - A big point for both sides; I think we should've played this before jumping into the middle with W52. Black pulling out the two stones on the left is still small, after B53 there are no points in that area. The bottom left corner is unfinished and a helps support W52, grows our moyo on the bottom left and threatens to attack black on the bottom. If black defends on the bottom we can look to play something like m to help solidify our moyo and aim to capture the two stones on the left.
  • schEkkEr I mostly agree with Abydos1, but give L5 (b) as an alternative. I believe we are still ahead on territory, so we can try to reduce. They have more to lose in mutual destruction than we have.
  • dave: G13 (c) to fence in our territory, and threaten to cut off B53.

Tapir chooses F5 (a) G13 c tries too hard making territory where we basically forced the opponent to walk into our moyo. Any fight here, even if successful in fencing in some territory will weaken our important J10 stone. L5 b is an invasion not a reduction as is any stone beyond the black+circle stone line (which isn't linked back). With no good way to make eyes i believe it is an overplay (I would expect Black to play a keima cutting us off, and complicated fight next which we could not afford to lose). The leaves a it works together with J10, although I am not sure that it achieves much. I am surprised that nobody considered calmer moves according to the principle of mutual damage by walking in further or R16 which was considered sente last move.


W52: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr J10(a); this should remove c14 aji on a large scale and give us options towards the center right.
  • dave: O5(b); same idea carried to the extreme, and helps us do something with the corner.
  • Abydos1: R16(c) - take our sente in the top right first (I don't foresee us invading the right at all). A is a big move but it's gote, we should take our sente moves first. See the diagram after W44 for how I think we should continue. B is too aggressive at this time; we'll just create a weak group with nowhere to run allowing black to solidify all his territory.

Tapir chooses J10 (a) O5 will lead to a weak and running center group, i.e. solidified black territory and gently reduced white prospects in the upper left. Black will follow when we run there. R16(c) is huge, but I am not sure that it is necessarily sente when two big frameworks are at stake in the center, Black can not settle the corner in sente anyway, so it will likely remain as sente for us - as our trouble was the huge black prospects not the amount of territory black has, I choose J10(a).


Moves 41 to 50

[Diagram]
Moves 41 to 50  



W50: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: b14 (a) - extend; the only move.

Tapir chooses B14 (a) Only move, indeed. Black says they want to create aji, but actually they may be removing aji. (Black at W50 not available anymore and White anyway not to capture the single stone in gote anytime soon.)


W48 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F16 (a) - connect.
  • thanatos13: D18 (b) - go crazy.
  • schEkkEr Maybe I'm just stupid or blind, but can't they pull out the C15 stone which might be bad news for the left side? So I propose C14(c).
  • dave: B19 (d) attack the corner

Abydos1 chooses F16 (a). Since tapir & jvloenen seem to still be away I'll go ahead and finish up the corner here. Connecting is the only option; c is too early, we have to defend the double atari first and the aji of black c is not that bad right now (try reading it out for several moves). b doesn't work because black can escape with the double atari and pulling out c.

  • tapir: I agree. C10 is well in place, and we would "crawl ahead" in case, that is black would just generate a weak group here without any prospects of capturing our stone. The time to consider this is when you play the double hane because the counter hane is always a possibility (and I am sure Abydos and jvloenen did).

W46 Suggestions

  • dave: D15 (a) as speculated by Abydos1 several moves ago.
  • Abydos1: E16 (b) - I think a is the right move but I'll add b as an option here giving black a ponnuki on the left.

jvloenen chooses D15 (a). A local move is necessary and E16 (b), giving a ponnuki, is too easy for black.
btw. this is my last move for the next three weeks.


[Diagram]
Abydos1: Continuation  


Possible continuation

  • Abydos1: I was looking at the game on a board last night and I think this is a good continuation for us; after black lives in the corner with B1-B3 we can take sente since the aji of black+circle is small right now. I think we should exchange W4 for B5 and then jump into the middle at W6. W6 seems to be the focal point for most of the board now, but especially the lower left; it looks to be sente too since black is thin on the bottom. I expect black will probably jump into the corner at a or b and after the bottom is settled we should look at playing near e. The game still looks even to me but if we get W6 and a play at e I think we're in great shape since we have plenty of solid territory and are even starting a moyo or two of our own and black is looking overconcentrated with little hope of converting the moyos to solid territory. One question I have is if W6 and black b do we defend the corner at c in gote or play the big point at e first; I'm not sure but I think we can defend at c and still be fine after a black play around e (the center is still open and we can still play near e to reduce black's moyos. A white play near e is also helping remove the aji of black pulling out black+circle.

W44 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: B15 (a) - hane again, see diagram below for continuation.

jvloenen chooses B15 (a). Only move.


W42 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F18 (a) - double hane (see diagrams from W38); we are very strong here, let's use that strength.
  • schEkkEr: I like Abydos1's variant too, but for choice give the usual 3-3 invasion continuation, F17 (b).
  • dave: I like (a) or (b) but I'll give J10 (c) as a suggestion.

jvloenen chooses F18 (a). F17 (b) feels a little slack, as we're strong around K17. J10(c) is a very big move. Much bigger than S15 (suggested at move 38). It is not tenuki time yet however, as the loss in the corner would be tremendous.

Moves 31 to 40

[Diagram]
Moves 31 to 40  



W40 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: E17 (a) - Block and double hane, see diagrams from previous move.
  • dave: I think (a) is the obvious and correct move, but I'll give Q16 (b) as a possible tenuki.

tapir chooses E17 (a). Only move. (I guess the keima F17 would have been an alternative, but as we decided the way to go at the last move already, we can as well stick to it.)

  • jvloenen: What do you mean Tapir? F17 is a move to get sente in a situation like this. We cannot play F17 without D16 as far as I know. (The move played is not a bad choice of course, I just don't understand your remark).
  • tapir: I mean the only other move I would consider in this situation is F17, otherwise E17 is the only move. (I don't understand what you say about D16. We have D16 and C16.) F17 gives up quite a lot of territory compared to our expected variations (-> abydos below), but gaining sente for a play on a focal point or a reduction may be worth as much.
  • jvloenen: I meant C16 not D17, sorry. I agree F17 gets sente for points. And if we have real sente (F17,F18,sente move,black answers sente move), the Abydos variations are gone. I don't know if this is a good idea right now, and like to discuss this later on as to not spoiling this game.

W38 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: C16 (a) - I think we should block this way and play the double hane; see variations below for more detail.
  • dave: D17 (b), the other obvious play. I think a is better, because there is a bigger area on the left side, and because the left side is not as strong as the top so it can be strengthened more by these moves. But I'm not good enough to tell for sure, so I'll give b as an option.
  • eozberk?: S15 (c) - What about tenuki? Maybe, it is time to invade black's territory because black will have sente if white responds to san-san invasion. I think it depends on style and current score estimation.

jvloenen chooses C16 (a). D17 (b) builds a wall on the wrong side as Dave pointed out. S15 (c) is interesting. I never though about this move. It seems to work, although we need to be carefull not to play a variation getting a few extra points which end with gote for us. Currently the sente value of S15 seems smaller than the black continuation in the corner (if we play S15, black will ignore and play C16), so C16 it is.

[Diagram]
Double Hane  


  • Abydos1: After this black can play at a or b and neither looks good for them:
[Diagram]
Double Hane - a  


  • Abydos1: We can play this way with W4 instead of connecting at a and black is not going to get a good result trying to pull out B3 and still has to go back and live at b
[Diagram]
Double Hane - b  


  • Abydos1: After the exchange with W6 black's ponnuki is very cramped although there is a little aji with black+circle now but the ladder still works.
[Diagram]
Double Hane - b, solid wall B7 at white+circle  


  • Abydos1: We can also play this way to build a big wall in sente.

W36 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: J15 (a) - Connect.
  • schEkkEr: I agree with J15 (a). For options, I propose J14 (b), which wants to be more active but is not very solid and would lead to an agressive fight.

tapir chooses J15 (a). No real alternatives, so no need to wait for more proposals and jvloenen to decide. Capturing directly may be considered as alternative in other circumstances.

eozberk: Hello everyone, I just joined your team, I think it will be fun.

W34 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr Difficult for me - I'm never sure whether we are already alive here or not. As for Q6 - that stone looks expendable for me as it's no cutting stone, at least the surrounding black groups look like they won't come under attack anytime soon. Also, adding another move to the corner looks pretty endgame-ish (if the corner is alive). So, on behalf of the proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" ^^ I propose c10 (a) as that's big, a nice extension from the lower left and quite ideal from the top left.
  • dave: D13 (b) same idea, I think we can leave the corner for now.
  • Chew: I may as well suggest S3 (c), unless we can't leave the corner yet.
  • Saurus I'm not convinced that we're alive. I'll offer s5 (d)
  • Abydos1: C16 (e) - I'm not sure we're alive but at the very least I think we can get a ko or seki but d does seem big in that it removes a lot of sente moves against the corner and gives us a big follow up on the right. a, while a big point, is the wrong direction from our corner since we're already low on that side and b is too thin. I think we're better off just closing the top left corner and solidly then we can attack any black invasions on the top and left very aggressively. I wonder if we can cut at k though; I don't think we can get away with it now but it may be a useful cut in the future.
  • lackita?: Q5 (f) - It looks slow, but it seems like it does an excellent job of separating black and gets us into the framework that's developing.

jvloenen chooses C10 (a). I think the R4 corner is alive, so both S3 (c) and S5 (d) are too slow. Therefore we play in the largest open space. I agree the position in relation to C6 is (too) low. This move in relation to D16 is fine though. D13 (b) is not good here. This is a moyo based move (the side is still open at C11 and it doesn't help the corner either). C16 (e) is a good move too. If we want to invade or reduce around tenger later on, I like a white stone on the left side. Therefore I choose a, not e. Q5 (f) is a move we like to play soon. It seems sentish for us (black will not answer immediately, will play other sente moves first). As black Q5 isn't sente either, I think we can play a now, and hopefully f later on. O5 (k) is too greedy, it will help black. We better use the threat to cut to connect f in sente.


W32 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr How about P2(a). When Black takes, we get to play Q5 and R5.
  • dave: Q5 (b) ko fight!
  • Abydos1: Q4 (c) - connect, black has a lot of aji on the bottom with the cuts and we might even be able to get away with sente here (I think).

jvloenen chooses Q4 (c). P2 (a) aiming to connect the useless Q6 stone (black gets the corner of will fix his shape on the lower side) doesn't make sense to me. If P2 it must be followed by O3 or O2. Both are failures for us. Q5 (b) a ko? The ko has no follow-up, so black has enough threats (pushing at O17, a ponnuki at K15). So we better connect now, and treat connecting the Q6 stone and capturing the P3 stone as miai.


Moves 21 to 30

[Diagram]
Moves 21 to 30  




W30 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr: O5 (a). Aims at the O3 cut so I don't think Black can ignore this.
  • dave: Q3 (b).
  • Chew: I'll suggest P5 (c) in case we want to prevent the cut.
  • Abydos1: I think b is probably best but I'll add Q4 (d) as another option.
  • thanatos13: They all look so painful, getting our 28 stone cut off with "b" or getting undercut with "c"... I don't know... and I'll suggest R5 (e).

jvloenen chooses Q3 (b).O5 (a), P5 (c), Q4 (d) and R5 (e) all force black to fix the cutting point (for instance at O3, Q3, N3 and Q3). Next I don't see a good follow-up move, we will be left with just a bunch of stones. So I choose b to get some eye-space. We will be sealed in the corner however -which isn't good- and we cannot sacrifice the corner stones anymore.
I wonder why no one suggested cutting at Q3 now? With the W28 block against the push at Q4, and the possibility to capture W27 in a ladder we would get nice forcing moves to settle our group and get out into the black influence (if black captures the cutting stones, we extend first to get the forcing move at O5 and get forcing moves at Q3 and P2 which would be good. If black plays Q3 we capture W27 and leave the cornerstones for aji).

W28 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: I'll go ahead and put up (a) P5 assuming black hanes. I didn't like this move because it allows black to develop the bottom and B5 already has support with B3 so after something like the following:
[Diagram]
Continuation?  
  • Abydos1: Joseki has white continuing at a but black has black+circle here so how are we supposed to continue after B5?
  • thanatos13: we have more than one joseki. The diagram there looks like a loss to me. So I say Q3(b). I forget the continuation, but i'm guessing black is going to atari, making us connect, giving us a solid (but not yet living) corner and giving them good looking cutting points.
  • dave: I like a, but I'll suggest O3 (c).
  • Saurus: I suggest w-q6 (d). Then, if black plays the hane at b-q7, we make good shape with w-p6.

jvloenen chooses Q6 (d). I agree with your analysis. P5 (a) creates a solid group aiming at the pincer. With black 23 in place it's more like creating a heavy group however. Q3 (b) will be followed by P5, Q4 and probably P2 (black has nothing to fear on the outside). We'll have a sealed group, and maybe even a sealed dead group. I never thought about O3 (c). Very interesting at first sight, aiming at cutting points. Black will probably push through at Q4 and P5, Q3, N4 will follow. If black next play around N6, it looks like we have an one-eye group. So Q6 it is, aiming at the other suggestions later on.

[Diagram]
Saurus: I like the shape for white...  
  • thanatos13: I'm wondering why we didn't just do Q6 first. 1: Did we unnecessarily strengthen our opponent's weak stone? 2: If we played Q6, black solidly played R7 (to reduce variations with cuts), then would we play P4? I don't think I've seen our current shape before. 3: If black Q4, can they cut us?
    • jvloenen: Do Q6 first? What do you mean? Q6 wasn't suggested for move 26.
  • thanatos13: very true. hmm... If it was, would it have made the situation better? black looks like he is ahead by quite a bit.




W26 Suggestions

  • dave: P4 (a)
  • thanatos13: 25 was a little closer than I thought. Cutting makes us too weak and I couldn't find a cut that will give us sente, so I suggest settling right now with (b). They can't completely surround us, so it's still good. If only the 23 stone wasn't so close. If this was all planned, I would be amazed.
  • Abydos1: Q5 (c), lean on this side to gain strength. b is too passive and gets surrounded. I feel like a is too passive as well and it's strengthening black's weak side here.
  • Chew: It'll take black more than one move to entirely kill all aji here. We can always tenuki and come back. If black ignores this to play again in the corner, that hane looks pretty huge. So 'd' at K14.
  • Saurus: r5 (e). Keep miai - choice of living or running, but with an extra stone in the area, it makes living a little easier.

jvloenen chooses P4 (a).We're under heavy attack, so tenuki is not an option now (unless we think we cannot live of course). K14 (d) is just too small. Q2 (b) feels too passive. The other options are all joseki. P4 is the most flexible move, creating the most cutting points. (We're under attack so cutting points are fine. We will sacrifice to get sabaki if needed).

W24 Suggestions

  • dave: D11 (a)
  • Saurus: I think we need to invade black's moyo before it becomes impossible. I suggest q5 (b).
  • Abydos1: k14 (e), this push is big as a black play here is sente and very solid building even more influence in the center; I can hardly see black ignoring this and even though they will probably hane it is a sente play for us and leaves the aji of the cut behind. After this exchange I think we should play calmly and close off the top left corner, black's stones have a strange relationship in the bottom right and are not working well together; even after a black play at d there are still plenty of invasion points. If we play too hastily in the bottom right black is just going to build wonderful thickness and make good use of his stones on the right and bottom side.
  • schEkkEr: I agree that we must do something about the right side; however, that the Black move is positioned just right to limit our possibilities if Black chooses this variant beginning with R4:
[Diagram]
Black answers Q5 with R4  


I admit that I'm a bit at a loss of giving something better; as wR4 would give Black the opportunity to get a wall pointing towards the left which would be


Wu Ren Go 3 / White last edited by 50.23.115.116 on January 25, 2015 - 22:51
RecentChanges · StartingPoints · About
Edit page ·Search · Related · Page info · Latest diff
[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]
RecentChanges
StartingPoints
About
RandomPage
Search position
Page history
Latest page diff
Partner sites:
Go Teaching Ladder
Goproblems.com
Login / Prefs
Tools
Sensei's Library