Tewari Example 7 / Version 20080502

Sub-page of TewariExample7

I am not very strong but I use tewari a lot in joseki when i am not sure how to play or punish an over play


This happend in my game and I was not sure if to play a or b

In first view they buth seem ok as punishment but then I started using tewari

xela: I thought this was an old joseki, not actually a mistake by white.

Bill: The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary says that it is good for Black. (Black continues with b.)


Looks ok for black mabe

but then I started thinking about another basic joseki

The basic 33 invation double hane is normaly OK for b but here its like they have the extra exchange that is realy bad for b as in the normal joseki w has sente and now has time for counter pincer


coldnight<Micheal Kris> 3k on kgs

please fix any mispels or mistakes you see

b cont. I  

xela: B5 can be played at a instead -- see 4-4 point one-space low pincer invasion, block

b cont. II  

Tapir: Looking at this variants b seems better than a. Since white has no ponnuki and a group without (secure) eyes either way. (I'm 3k KGS as well.)

Bob McGuigan: These analyses don't seem to be tewari in accord with the description on the main page. The reasoning doesn't involve removing stones or reordering moves. This is just ordinary analysis, the main point being that a sequence of moves is bad because it leaves a stone badly placed.

unkx80: It is easy to turn this into a tewari in the true sense of the word.

Bob: Yes. My comment referred to the original presentation, which was not tewari.

Why is this sequence bad?  

Why is this sequence bad for Black?

Joseki plus a bad move.  

B1 to B7 is a standard joseki, so the result should be roughly even for both players. However, when W8 pushes up, B9 is a bad move which leads to a misplaced stone. But the position after B9 is the same as the ending position of the previous diagram. Hence, by tewari, the sequence in the previous diagram is not good for Black.

Tas: But is W8 a good move?

Herman Hiddema: Yes, W8 is normal. Many people are tempted to play a, but W8 is usually better. See next diagram

After the joseki  

Play at white+circle from this position is generally better than playing the keima at W2. In this position, after W2, black would like to play the double hane B3, but can't because of the sequence shown.

Dwell on  

Dieter: Just to dwell on, I guess this side stepping by Black does not really produce a good result, leaving weaknesses at a and b in gote.

Herman Hiddema: Yes, especially as black usually chooses the original joseki here (double hane after the 3-3 invasion) when a wall facing the top side is not very valuable, opting instead to take points in the corner.

Bill: W8 is the normal move? (And not, perhaps, a play that occurs only under special conditions, and is normally inferior?) Where is the evidence?

Bob McGuigan: I think Jowa played the keima move frequently.

Herman Hiddema: I've played the keima, only to be criticized by Guo Juan, who explained that W8 is the correct move. Searching GoGoD for the next white move in this position yields:

  • Searching tightly, with a single line of open space: W8 by far the most used move. with 138 hits for W8, 58 for stretching in the corner, and 8 hits for the keima up.
  • Searching with more space (3 lines of space around the position): W8 still by far the most used move. with 50 hits for W8, 9 for stretching in the corner, 12 hits for extending along the side (keima or ogeima) and 2 hits for the keima up.

And it should be noted that usually, when white stretches into the corner, this usually involves a strategy where W8 is played soon anyway. (Eg: In the tight search, after the stretch, the usual response for black is 2-2 (54 times), after which the most common followup by white is W8 (10 times, with bending on the second line coming second at 5 times)

unkx80: You mean this W8 on the diagram on the right? A quick scan at the results of a GoBase search indicates that W8 is far more common than the keima at a. It is also very common for W8 to be played elsewhere instead.

Herman Hiddema: Yep, that W8. It was not my intention to imply that this move should take precedence over tenuki, only that it is the normal move in the local context, and better than the keima under normal circumstances.

Bill: I thought you were talking about W8 in the original diagram, not W8 in the later diagram. Glad to have that cleared up. ;)

Herman Hiddema: Ah, ok. No, that one is indeed not the normal move :)

Tewari Example 7 / Version 20080502 last edited by on January 27, 2015 - 05:47
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