Odd Dots Go Ongoing Game

    Keywords: Life & Death, Ongoing game

blubb proposed the following arrangement in MaximumNumberOfLiveGroups. This looks beautifully symmetric as it is, but I'd like to sacrifice its immaculate beauty by playing it. -- (Sebastian)

Note that this original setup is highly unbalanced, with only black stones on the border. This is because it was chosen to get the maximum string count (here: 181). With one less stone, blubb improved the starting position to get the Dots Go Ongoing Game, which is well balanced, because it is symmetric under the operation "rotate by 90° and switch colors".

Current Position - Last Move marked  

181 strings - but seki? moves 20+x  

Tas: B1 Lets see if we can get another eye or catch some white. (Which is of course also making another eye).

Phelan: W2 trying to stop black from making an eye.

Tas: B3 well this makes thickness and a definate escape, we must be able to get the second eye later. It seems that shapes can almost allways live here. A web wide enough to prevent escape makes plenty of inside space for eyes. I don't think its seki. The endgame will be interesting though

An extra thought: Maybe we should be playing more strategically for influence and territory, instead of these live-and-kill tactics.

NickGeorge: W4 Methinks if I were black, I'd want to play at 4, getting a double sided wall (or 4 sided...). So, it seems big to prevent black from doing that.

Tas: B5 Lets try an influence minded tenuki. I was considering a though.

Edit: Changed my mind and swapped them. This can't be bad. a is what I had played before.

Mef: W6 need a move here to live, this looks as good as any.

unkx80: B7.

Curtmack: W8 guarantees one eye and cuts off Black's lower-right group from our eye space. Later we can hopefully connect to another side of the board and gain another eye there.

(Sebastian:) B9 I like Tas' extra thought: We've been playing this like an end game, which makes instinctive sense since it's all so crowded. But maybe we should just ignore the background and play as if it were a normal game. Hence' lets play in the corner first. I now believe that if the opponent attacks us there, it's just as if someone attacks you directly right in the opening of a normal game; it should hurt them in the long run.

181 strings - but seki? moves 10-20  

Frieder -- B1 - Well lets Build an eye - W2 - Prevent Black from living - B3 Black escapes - ... (No comment) - W6, B7, W8 W is living. B9 Black Begin to build his second eye

181 strings - but seki? moves 1 to 10  

B1 - no idea if this is a good move. Let's see what happens. -- (Sebastian)

W2 - same here :) -- blubb

B3 - Here's my thought process:

  1. I have the eery feeling that whoever starts at a given place has no chance of getting life there him/herself, because the opponent can always block just enough.
  2. But wait a minute - isn't that always the case in Go? The only difference is that it's hard to see interaction between remote stones.
  3. I'm considering retracting my move to tenuki and try out if there is any of if it is all neutralized by the stones in between.
  4. But if I tenuki than you definitely can make life at B3.
  5. It really seems like anyone who moves at a place increases primarily his/her opponent's chance to win at that place.
  6. Is that a negative temperature?
  7. If you choose to move at 4, I'll move at 5, which starts something like a ladder via 6. So there is remote interaction after all!
  8. No, it's not like a ladder. After one more move, you get to choose if you want to go straight or bend it.
  9. This reminds me a bit of the game we call "Käsekästchen" ("little cheese box") in German - [ext] dots and boxes in English. -- (Sebastian)

Arno: B7: W cannot save her stones on the second line. I think B has an easy win :o)

(Sebastian:) B9 - No idea what Arno had in mind, but this can't be wrong.

blubb: W10 - Just let's see :)

Something might be interesting to note:

Odd positions are already played, only circles can be played.  

Until a capture is made, the players can only play on even positions, no?

A single stone in the center has 6 liberties.  

Note that B1 creates 6 liberties.

Bill: Well, there were 7 liberties to start with. . . . ;)

White attacking in response  

White's attack there has reduced the liberties for both stones (B1 and W2) to 3+2.

Liberties at the center, sides and corners.  

Play on an a would result in 3 liberties for both black and white.

A white play on a b would result in 3 liberties, whereas a black one would result in 4.

White stones played on cs would have the full 6 liberties, whereas black ones would only have 5.

Viewed this way, white seems to be at an advantage as there as there are 4 more c squares on a board. (Yet it would be harder for white to cut a black b from expanding inwards than it would be for black to cut a white b.)

I don't know... how would you analyze such a game?

All in all, this looks like a modified version of Go on a different grid, the interesting thing being that the grid is slightly different for the black and the white.

-- aib

(Sebastian:) Yes, that's an unnecessary asymmetry. If we play this again, let's play it on an even numbered square to give B and W equal positions.

Heres another 181-stringy monster. I don't really think it's stable. Who knows? (According to the ruleset, chose komi so that, if considered to be a "global seki", it's a tie: 0 in japanese, 3 in chinese counting.) -- blubb

181 strings again - but seki?  

I think on this one, White has the best chance to get some life. The first black ring (from the center) is dead, and White can salvage it. At least I have no idea how black could prevent that. -- (Sebastian)

Is the innermost black ring really dead?  

(Sebastian:) Point taken. Well, that's too complicated for me. I'd rather stick with the checkerboard pattern.

Odd Dots Go Ongoing Game last edited by Sebastian on May 17, 2011 - 22:12
RecentChanges · StartingPoints · About
Edit page ·Search · Related · Page info · Latest diff
[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]
Search position
Page history
Latest page diff
Partner sites:
Go Teaching Ladder
Login / Prefs
Sensei's Library