Endgame / Discussion

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Sub-page of Endgame

Velobici: Thus endgame moves are moves that gain points only. The moves do not increase one's influence, make life for a group or threaten the death of a group. Endgame moves are about points only.

Bill Spight: False, false, false! Endgame moves are not only about points. They are also about life and death and thickness (if not influence like moves in the opening). There is a saying: "The endgame is fighting strength (chikara)."

Velobici: Could you re-write the first paragraph to explain this better? The big groups part leaves me confused . Then we can delete the incorrect material (the section Thus endgame moves...points only.) A side note: Does chikara also appear as chakra in various manga/anime? Naruto in particular.
Bill: I just moved everything to this footnote. Is that OK, Velobici?
As for chakra the only chakra I know of is the Sanskrit term meaning circle or center of subtle energy in yoga.

Velobici: I may have been mislead (or misunderstood) the comment to the third diagram of 4-4 point low approach, tsukenobi, jump attachment. There is says the the play by White is worth points only and therefore is an endgame move. Implying to me that endgame moves are about points only. The first line of this page says that the status of all big groups is already determined. Are you saying that the status of smaller groups might still be unsettled? What is a big group? How many stones/points are involved? The 4-4 point low approach, tsukenobi, jump attachment page speaks of 22 points. The smallest group I can come up with is 19 points (2 for Black, 13 for White). Now I am confused.


Dieter: Although Bill's remark is revealing to me too, let me say that "points only moves are endgame moves" doesn't imply "endgame moves are points only moves". Points only move can be said to be a subset of endgame moves, so that there are endgame moves which are not points only. Could you sign your contributions to a discussion ?

Bill: First, I have moved this discussion to a footnote. I don't want to clutter the introductory exposition.

Second, the move Velobici mentions on 4-4 point low approach, tsukenobi, jump attachment is a yose play, not necessarily an endgame play. (See footnote [1]. I have edited that statement.) In fact, the succeeding diagram shows that, since it talks about the danger of waiting too late. Sometimes you play yose in the opening.

Third, I was also surprised to hear that The endgame is fighting strength, -- in a book by Sakata, I think. OC, my endgames have always been about life and death, because of mistakes. ;-)

Velobici: Bill, regarding your change to 4-4 point low approach, tsukenobi, jump attachment, replacing endgame with yose, yose is an alias page for endgame. The result is a redirection from through yose to endgame in place of going to endgame directly. What is the difference between yose and endgame? I thought that the middle game was fighting strength and that the endgame was all about counting and keeping sente.

mAsterdam: Here's 2 Eurocents: If the following statements are correct, the necessary actions are evident.

  • Yose is a type of move sequence that doesnt do much more than stabilizing the border of territory.
  • The endgame (Japanese: Shuban) is the phase of the game where most moves are yose.

So (if true) Let's Unalias Yose to endgame, and create a new yose page. Let's search for 'endgame' and 'yose', and correct the phrases where yose and endgame are used interchangeably.

P.S. I tried to include the Korean words. There are some terms relating the the endgame (and probably Yose), but I wasn't sure. I would welcome a little expanation with some subtle terms. Sazn?

Bill: A yose is an approach move; hence, yose ko = approach ko. There are a variety of moves in go that might be considered approach moves. E. g., kakari, tsume, hasami. A yose is fairly small scale, although it may be a large play, typically between stable or fairly stable groups. (We are getting into my experience and understanding. A better player might have some quibbles.) As a rule, yose do not kill, but they may threaten to kill. Life and death is a significant aspect of yose. It may be correct to play a large yose in the opening.

In common parlance, both in Japan and the West, yose also refers to fairly small plays (10 points miai or less) and to the endgame. So for the most part the distinction is academic. It mainly matters when, as in the example on the 4-4 joseki page, someone refers to a large yose as a large endgame play. It's a yose, all right, but likely to be played before the endgame.

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Endgame / Discussion last edited by Unkx80 on May 24, 2004 - 07:33
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