BQM 449

    Keywords: Opening, Question
Kyus at work  

tapir: this is from recent blitz games of mine. since my opponent consistently played this opening (i m black). i tried to convince him by game play that this opening is not good for white. however, odds were 2:3 at last (that is he won despite this opening). so i long for, other convincing arguments in form of tewari or anything else. thank you.

Kyus at work II  

Andy Pierce: I don't like B13 since it makes B11 inefficient. If black is going to play B13, then he would much prefer B11 at a. White had to patch up with W12, which is why this joseki is isn't so good for black without a stone on the left already in place (see: 44PointOneSpaceLowPincerInvasionBlock). Since black gets a free move while white patches with W12, I think black should immediately counter-pincer white+circle while extending from the hoshi stone in the upper right in this manner[100].

tapir: The B13 in the top right looks odd imho after white fixes up the joseki. If anything I would like to have an approach in the lower left then. B11 at a may be better now, but leaving white splitted looks so good to me, I didn't need time to think about B13 at all. (It was blitz anyway.)

Bill: I don't particularly like B13, either. I prefer b, as Black is alive in the corner. It is not like White can afford to cut with gote. ;)

Kyus at work III  


Tewari at work  

Herman: Suppose white chooses to ignore the approach B5, and play a counter-approach W6, making the upper corners miai. B7 is reasonable, supporting B5 while pincering W6. White enters the corner.

Tapir: Thanks! Very convincing, I try to live up to this by winning next time. :) Btw. how do you answer such symmetrical plays like W6 here. I usually would play the starpoint 10-4 or 10-3, but maybe this is unnecessary shy.

Herman: Pincers like 10-4, 10-3 or B7 in the diagram are all good moves, because they also support B5 and are thus dual purpose moves. Black can also choose to simple extend and play one of the 4-4 point low approach, low extension joseki. If this ends with white pincering B5, which it could, B5 is not in trouble because white has not responded on the left. So black can counter-pincer W4 or enter the corner and should be fine. Personally, I would have slight preference for one of the pincers, but an extension cannot really be said to be wrong.

Tewari at work II  

Herman: After white takes the upper right corner, black decides to take the upper left with B17. White builds a wall to influence the left and work with white+circle

Tewari at work III  

Herman: B21 defends against the double cut on the second line, W22 stakes out the left. B23 is a good move, expanding blacks top moyo while reducing that of white on left. W24 is a very bad move. It is far too close to black's strong stones in the upper left. It is pre-pincered by black+circle, so doesn't have any potential to make a base on the top. B25 is the natural response, pressing down on white's moyo on the left while attacking W24


Kyus at work again  

Herman: White can now play W14 at a, and I think B13 then becomes slack, and does not punish white effectively, because of the following tewari....

Tewari at work again  
Tewari at work again II  

Herman: Up to W12 is joseki in the upper left, but this is usually bad for white is there is no stone at or around W14. With B13, black is playing on the unimportant side (white+circle and W12 do not make much influence here), allowing white to patch up his defect with W14. Instead, black should have invaded the left side (at a, for example) to make white's wall ineffective or overconcentrated.

Andy Pierce: Well that seems simple enough. Not to get all tewari or anything, but since white should have had a stone around a already before initiating the joseki, black can mess white up by putting his stone down where white's stone should have been.

Bob McGuigan: Here's the pro report from GoBase:

No GoBase pro games  

There are no games on GoBase in which White blocks at W8.

The pro move  

There are at more than 100 games on GoBase in which White plays W8 here.

I think a simple answer is that playing on the "wrong" side as White does in the game diagram and playing the left side star point before finishing the joseki in the upper left is inconsistent. White doesn't get a good moyo on the left side and really isn't using the pincer stone fully on the upper side. White's three stone wall in the upper left corner is heavy, not thick, when the joseki isn't finished.

BQM 449 last edited by AndyPierce on January 6, 2009 - 21:13
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