Forum for 3-4 point Josekis

If like this how to attack? [#785]

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reply If like this how to attack? (2006-12-15 13:41) [#2574]
High approach followed by overplay. How to attack?  

To me 1 is clearly an overplay. I am only about 9k. Please help me. Thanks.

xiaodai: Re: If like this how to attack? (2006-12-15 12:05) [#2583]

Thank you. In the original post, of course it should be White1 then Black2.

AlexWeldon: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 07:28) [#2575]

I wouldn't try too hard to "punish" this move directly. Most of the moves you mark in your diagram are questionable. Certainly, moves like a (in your diagram, not mine) and e are just going to help Black fix his weakness and make B2 look like a good move. Of the ones you have marked, the attachments of b and c in your diagram look the most natural to me, either of which will probably result in you getting the corner. The question is whether you end up making B2 look misplaced or not.

(Up until now, letters have referred to your diagram. Hereafter, they refer to mine)

Don't try too hard  

My personal style would be to "punish" Black's speedy development by following suit and extending all the way to W3. There are two reasons I'd play this way (I have no idea if this is in any way "correct," mind you). Firstly, I want to treat W1 lightly so that I can invade at b later, to which c will be a problematic response if W1 ends up being too important to me. Secondly, Black won't want to attach at a now to take the corner, since W3 will end up ideally placed if he does, while B2 will end up in a silly spot.

This is a good general principle in dealing with seemingly unreasonable moves... often the right way of thinking isn't to look for a way to invade/attack/kill, but rather to aim for a position in which natural continuations later in the game will leave your stones in a sensible-looking spot, while your opponent's will seem misplaced in retrospect.

Easier said than done, of course. You could also just tenuki, since his loose extension gives you ample room to settle easily in the corner if he tries to pincer you.

tderz: Re: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 13:05) [#2585]
Alex's proposal  

tderz: Alex, just one consideration (I am not claiming that any sequence might be better than yours):

Tommie's proposal: High-low harmony principle  

tderz: often one wants to follow the High-low harmony principle.
Here it would mean that, because the W1 is high, I would place my W3 low (on the third line).

If Black intends to play the tsuke-hiki Joseki (a-k-l-m) then W3 is still perfectly placed.

However, the harmony idea becomes more important once Black decides to invade somewhere between W1 & W3.

If White however gets the chance to play the inside-attachment joseki p-q-l-r, then White's W3 is a bit far from W1,
which seem fully compensated by the strange distance black qXr to B2 (invasion point b).

Anyway, my comment here is just mentioned as additional idea for consideration, not meant as anything better.

Zinger: Re: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 15:00) [#2588]

When my opponent makes an unexpected or odd-looking move, the first thing I do is ask myself, what is he up to? How is he planning to use this stone? In this case I think the answer is:


B4 looks like a good move, taking a sizable corner and firming up the connection to B2. I think this is too good to allow, and that therefore W3 should be at a. This move also follows general principles - black's move is too far away to connect, so white should cut.

AlexWeldon: Re: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 16:30) [#2598]

This is a very good point. The butt is a bit of a blind spot for me, I'll admit - I hadn't considered this move for Black, and I agree it does turn out well for him.

Too good for Black  

Although White can take sente with W2-B3, this is way too much territory for Black.

As usual, the common sense answers (the attachments) are the right ones and my attempts at cleverness fail in the face of greater cleverness. :-)

Zinger: Re: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 17:53) [#2626]

Hmm, I'm not so sure as I started out. B3 below looks a bit overconcentrated. White can play W4 as shown, making efficient spacing on the top side, and is this so bad for him?

Too good for Black ?  

Maybe black could try B3 here:

Too good for Black ?  

Which favors black on territory, but leaves a boatload of cutting aji on the left side. hmmm ...

AlexWeldon: Re: Take it easy? (2006-12-15 18:40) [#2629]

Yeah, when I made the diagram, I felt like descending with W4 was slow, so I omitted it and said White can take sente, but now that I see it laid out, I think I'd take that result as White. Since most of the corner is still up for grabs, Black's territory only totals something like 15-20 points, while as you say, White has an ideal formation, assuming the position in the top right is appropriate.

Your second diagram seems better than the first for Black, though as you say, there's a lot of aji and White gets sente. I'm not quite sure how to evaluate the result - my suspicion is that a Japanese pro would say "slightly good for White," because influence + sente usually beats territory + aji in Japan. A Korean pro might say "slightly good for Black." I would personally take Black because I'm not sure at my level of play, I could take sufficient advantage of the aji to make up for Black's large corner.

Bill? Dieter? Anyone want to offer an opinion on these sequences?

tderz: Re: Take it easy? -> better standard shape?! (2006-12-16 22:23) [#2663]
Too good for Black ?  

tderz: B5 tigermouth is better shape IMO.
If we expect the exchange atari White a - Black b, then sente (in order to avoid the big hane d),
then Black still has the later aji clamp c.

The left side looks pretty black anyway, as p and q are miai.

reply Attachments (2006-12-15 10:17) [#2579]

Take a look at BQM 328 for info on the outside attachment.

--Patrick Taylor

Dieter: attach (2006-12-15 14:01) [#2586]

I think I would attach and settle the stone. Black 2 will either end up too far or too close. Diagrams maybe later.

Bill: Re: attach (2006-12-15 19:11) [#2631]

Dieter, I take it you mean attaching at the 3-3. I agree. :-)

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