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Difference between joban and fuseki [#579]

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Dieter: Difference between joban and fuseki (2006-08-07 13:30) [#2038]

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Joban states that Joban means opening phase of the game. Here we also have a term opening. What is the difference? Is Joban the initial moves till the middle game begins, in which a fuseki is played out? In other words does this correspond to the Chess idea of the opening (joban) which might be a French, Nimzo-Indian, Sicilian (fuseki) etc.? If this difference is correct, do the Chinese and Korean terms here refer the the starting phase of a game (joban) or to a particular common pattern (fuseki) ?? -- Velobici

kokiri it's probably one of those Japanese differences that really only matter to pedantic Japano-linguo-philes (guilty as charged), but my understanding of the two terms (which I've never really thought as far as to put into words before now, so be warned) is that Joban is the basic term meaning opening, as in opening, middlegame, endgame; whilst the fuseki lies within the Joban in so far as it represents the conceptual, strategic ideas behind the first moves that determine how the game will progress, so that Joban is factual - like the first 30 or 50 moves say, whilst fuseki is more concept-based, descriptive maybe. and breathe - does that make any sense, I'm not sure. <edit> I just looked at and they have fuseki as: 囲碁で、序盤に全局的な構想に立って石を置くこと which I amateurishly offer as in the game of go, during the opening (Joban), the act of playing stones from a whole-board perspective. I should add that in my experience, problem books often seem to call a section of opening problems fuseki problems if they are even game problems, but Joban problems in the case of handicap games.

Velobici Would love to find a reasonable "" name to parallel the middle game and end game pages....that would be joban. Then we need a page for opening as in fuseki. Perhaps a disambiguation page is the way to go. Opening provides a summary of each and points the reader to both fuseki and joban pages.

Bill: I think that opening in English covers both joban and most of fuseki. So I suggest a dictionary style first paragraph that is something like this:


1) The initial phase of a game. (See joban.)

2) A specific initial pattern of play over the whole board, such as Chinese Opening, Sanrensei, and Shusaku Opening. (See fuseki.) ---

Dieter: Then I suggest to create opening phase? and opening pattern? and make joban and fuseki respective aliases.

Bill: A couple of years ago I asked if we wanted to have an SL dialect, our own go terminology. Nobody responded.

Now, if we want to do that, I say fine. But I am not comfortable with presenting it as standard, and I have some qualms with simply coming up with English terms for existing pages that have non-English names without careful consideration.

I think it's OK to have an opening phase or opening stage page, and to have an opening pattern page. In fact, I find the former preferable to joban. But I would not make fuseki an alias to opening pattern. Fuseki is more general, I think.

I think that the Go Player's Almanac is as close to standard as we have. It defines joban as the opening stage. It defines fuseki as the opening, but I think that that is inadequate. Maybe John Fairbairn can correct me if I am wrong.

(Later.) A little dictionary work has convinced me that, as Kokiri pointed out, fuseki means the strategic placement of stones in the opening phase of the game. Anyway, I think that it is time to rename joban to opening phase or opening stage and make joban an alias.

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