Unkx80: Old discussion in 2004 moved here (2008-10-23 21:01) [#5173]

Robert Pauli: Come on, just write "The result is a seki in gote for Black" on Long-L Group (and purge them) . . . +

Bildstein: A lot of problems on goproblems.com require you to find a sente seki solution where a more obvious gote seki solution exists (usually without telling you first, of course). It's become such a common term to me, as I assume it has to others, that I thought it was worth bringing it into SL . . . +

Robert Pauli: How about gote seki? + +

Bill: In what sense is a seki a gote seki or sente seki? I would guess that a gote seki is one reached in gote, while a sente seki is one that carries a threat that must be answered, so it is reached in sente. The goproblems.com usage makes sense, too.

Bildstein: I would say that a sente seki is not so much a seki that carries a threat, as one where you make the defender create the seki. To put this another way, if the defender omitted the last move, the group could be killed.

Bill: Why not take the defender's point of view and call that a gote seki?

Bildstein: What's one player's sente is another players gote... but this is about tsumego, so I think it really depends on who is trying to solve the problem. In the Long-L Group example, the page is written from the point of view of White, in that White is the initiator, so the seki is a sente seki for white.

Bill: I did not think that the Long-L Group was a tsumego page per se, but a page about a position that sometimes occurs in real games. (Not that I am objecting to the use of gote seki there. :-))

As for the line on Long-L Group:

The result is a gote seki for Black

the meaning is clear.

Robert Pauli: Put your + after one of the three, Bill (1st+3rd = no new term needed, 2nd = new term needed)

Alex Weldon: I cast my vote for "gote seki" because I doubt that anyone who cannot figure out what a "gote seki" is after reading what "gote" is and what "seki" is would be playing Go in the first place. And defining it as "a seki that is reached in gote" is circular anyway. If there must be a page, it should at least say "Mutual life (see seki) achieved in such a way that the player who initiated the sequence loses the initiative (see gote)."

As for explaining that a sente seki is better for the initiator than a gote seki, maybe we should just have a page like Desirability of Outcomes in Local Life and Death, listing them from "Kill in sente" all the way down to "Kill self in gote."

Bill: Robert, it appears that sente seki and gote seki are not new terms, but already appear in print. A Google search found references to the British Go Journal.