Forum for Global joseki
How different from just good opening play? [#1050]
Bob McGuigan: Is there any difference between whole board joseki and good opening play? Presumably if both sides play well the result is approximately even, so why do we need a special term for it?
One technical question: In the usual corner joseki the result is supposed to be even as it stands. In whole board openings presumably white is still about 6.5 points behind on the board (komi), no?
Hi Bob,
The term does not apply to a unique opening, which is then evaluated as even, but to a standard opening which has been thoroughly investigated and played a significant amount of times in pro play. "Standard opening" or "set sequence of whole board opening moves" is probably a better term. One example is the mini-Chinese, which has been investigated and experimented with at a great length.
I confess to being mystified by this page. For years we have been learning about the Shusaku opening, san-ren-sei, chinese opening, Kobayashi fuseki and so on, and using the word "fuseki" or "opening" to describe these things. I can't see how the idea of a "whole board joseki" is something new.
A Defintion of Joseki is
:A Reasonable local (corner) sequence which results in an even result for both, """ Without consideration of surrounding conditions""".
The above is a generally accepted defintion of joseki.
The problem is,,, Recently this denitinion of joseki is becoming obscured.
In other words, (relatively) clear distinction of Joseki and opening is getting ambigous in pro's research recently, and this trend is also reflected in Go literatures (at least in korea) direclty for last 10 years.
In (korean) Go textbooks, many josekis are not dicussed without surrounding conditions anymore. Relavant diagams are presented in a whole board position, (at least in a half board size)
The following quote (with my crude translation) from Moon 5p's recent Padook colum (Defintion of joseki is being challenged?) may be helpful (2007-04-23, ![[ext]](images/extlink.gif)
http://www.cyberoro.com/column/column.htm?category=1)
""" 다른 하나는 정석의 정의와 관련된 것으로, 정석이란 주변의 조건을 고려하지 않은 상태에서 귀를 중심으로 흑백 간 최선의 응접의 집합을 의미한다. 그런데 문제는 주변 조건을 고려하는 경향이 최근 들어 더욱 강해졌다는 점이다. 귀가 아니라 변을 중시하는 중국식포석이 다반사로 쓰이며, 더욱이 변형되어 널리 애용되는 것을 보면 더욱 더 그런 경향을 실감할 수 있다.
화점과 소목의 인식 변화 즉, 소목에의 걸침이 화점에의 걸침에 비해 급하다는 인식도 사라진지 오래다. 단속적인 전투가 보편적이기에 실리와 세력에 대한 이해도 변하고, 결국 전체가 부분을 앞선다는 시각이 훨씬 강조되고 있는 것이다. 요컨대, 정석의 정의를 뒤흔드는 요인이 많아지고 있는 것이다.
Another relavant issue is about defintion of joseki. Joseki means " Best sequence by black and white in corner area without considering surrounding conditions (positions) "
But, the problem is that a tendency of considering surrounding conditions for joseki research is becoming even more outstanding and emphasized nowadays. Seeing that chinese opening and its variants are widely used, which emphasize not corner but side, we realize that trend more clearly.
Judgement of hoshi and 3-4 corner has also changed. That is, an opinion that an approach to 3-4 corner is more urgent that that to hoshi has already vanished long time ago. Since imminent fight(combat) prevails, understanding of actual territory and influence is changing, a point of wholism ( a whole board decides goodness of local sequence) is being emphasized even more than before considerably.
In short, there happens many factors to threaten definition of joseki.
"""
Remind Deiter's post "standard opening 1"
In fact, the title of the post is not so proper, because the joseki sequence of about 30 moves is introduced in a "Joseki book" of korean Go literature.(Not opening book) But, in that " sequence of a recent korean joseki", Distinction of opening and joseki is really ambigous obscure. In other words, that joseki sequence is presented in a whole board size diagrams, and each joseki move is commented in whole board point of view.
And the sequence involves whole board considerations.
This type of joseki research (which involves surrouding conditions in its joseki sequence) already existed partly. But, recently this trend is getting even more remarkable (at least in korea), and is being directly refelcted in recent joseki books.
In summary,
1) There is a trend that joseki research involves surrouding condistions in whole board size unlike before.
2) this recent trend is getting notable more and more (so reflected in korean Go literatures recently).
3) as a result, traditional defintion of joseki is under challege now.
At last, I dont care about specific english Term for this new trend of joseki research.
I'll replace the page name with "standard opening": the word joseki is too sensitive it seems. Yet, the word is not badly chosen:
- the san-ren-sei, or the mini-chinese, or the Kobayashi fuseki describe a set of opening patterns which start with the same configuration of about five to ten stones
- the whole board joseki are then a particular set of 30 to 40 moves within each fuseki pattern; after that sequence, the pros say "this is joseki" (this produces an equal result); they do not say "this is fuseki (this is the opening stage - of course it is)"; so within the mini-Chinese fuseki, there are a number of whole board joseki
Playing the san-ren-sei is just a choice of opening, not following a standard, researched set of moves. The latter is the core of the idea. Pros are now researching whole board patterns, not local patterns which they try to give a sense in a global context. The direction of thinking is important. To me, Dieter, the shift is important enough to apply a new term and I think whole board joseki (whole board standard sequence), which seems to be used in the East, is just fine.
I also vote to keep the original title. Yes, it stretches the meaning of the term, joseki, but word meanings are not set in stone. To some extent, they are negotiated between speaker and hearer, writer and reader, or co-created by both. I do think that the text should reflect the fact that a new meaning is intended. Yes, the title takes a point of view, but why not? as long as that is admitted and explained.
In a footnote I have made some editing suggestions. Note that the fact that joseki is used in a new sense is admitted, and the reader is invited to adopt that meaning, rather than simply being told, here is a term and this is what it means.
Also, I think that standard opening has a more general meaning, including, for instance, nirensei, sanrensei, Chinese opening, and Kobayashi opening.
Thanks Minue and Dieter for the explanations.
No, don't change the name of the page, it's certainly thought-provoking, and if people really are using this term then it deserves a page.
I do feel that the main page could use some more explanation in light of the discussion here, but I don't feel qualified to add such explanation myself.
My additions were a rendition of my discussions with Minue. Since he has added a few notes here himself, I assume it was not sufficient, so I'll update the main page. Later.
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