Scoring/ Discussion

Born To Lose  

For example, let's say two beginners are playing a game. They don't necessarily understand when an invasion cannot succeed, so Black might play at , hoping to somehow stake out some more territory. White can capture, but it will take a minimum of four stones to capture that one invader, subtracting from white's score. A poor sport might simply throw stone after stone into the opponent's territory, causing the player to fill in almost all of his territory trying to kill the invaders.

I've read in many places that "Black wouldn't do that," but that assumes the player knows the invasion can't succeed; with beginners it's sometimes not obvious, and if we rearrange the board slightly a clever invasion might be possible. So depending on the players to know what will succeed isn't useful.

For my own purposes I use Chinese scoring, because the stones used to capture invaders won't subtract from the player's score. But Japanese scoring tends to be most common online, so I figure I should understand how this situation is resolved.

So how should beginner players handle this situation?

Shaydwyrm: The thing to keep in mind is that every move that black plays in white's territory also gives white one prisoner, which under Japanese scoring is worth a point. Therefore, as long as white only plays once in her own territory for every invading stone, her score remains constant. White doesn't have to capture each stone, that is, actually remove all its liberties; she just has to keep it dead, so that when the scoring begins the black stones get removed.

Eric545: I understand, but I still have a hard time boiling that down to a simple rule that I can explain to another beginner. What if the other player disputes that a group is dead? What if it's not obvious to either of us? The only way to know for sure is to play it out, which might result in reducing your own score. A beginner is especially likely to play too many pieces during this play, so there's even incentive to play in a beginner opponent's territory.

Gul: If you are not sure if something is alive just play it out. Fill all the dame's etc. Something is alive if it has two separate non false eyes. Even a beginner can figure out a played out dead or alive group

Eric545: Of course. But that's my whole problem: the defender will almost certainly play more stones than he captures, and under Japanese scoring, this costs points. (This is assuming that the invader can simply pass without losing points.)

Bill: Here is a way for beginners to settle such disputes that I have advocated for over 30 years. It works well enough. If, after the dame have been filled, there is a dispute over whether certain stones are alive, see if they can be captured. Play it out, with the attacker playing first, and the defender playing last. If the defender must pass instead of playing a stone, he gives up a stone as a captive. The attacker either gives up, or captures the stones in question. Do not bother to restore the original position. Just score the board as is.

That does not always give you the correct score under Japanese scoring, because it decides end of game positions using different rules than ordinary play. But normally it does. Later on you can delve into the peculiarities of modern Japanese scoring.

Eric545: So the best way to resolve this is by adding a 1-stone penalty to a pass? I can live with that in the real world. But I don't think it's possible to do this in online games. Which brings me back to my original feeling that beginners playing online games using Japanese scoring is asking for trouble. And the gGo client doesn't support Chinese scoring! *sob*

Bill: In the real world, the pass is unnecessary. The defender almost always can play a stone without filling a necessary eye or dame. Here is an example, based upon yours.

Filling dame  

Both players know that the stones are dead, but White thinks that the stones are alive.

First, fill the dame. is not a dame, but White does not know that.

Now Black claims that the stones are dead, and White disagrees. Black plays first.

Killing White (3)  

Black has captured the White stones, and White makes the final play. No pass is necessary.

Born To Lose variation played out.  

Eric545: (Sorry if I'm being a pain, but I'm still not quite clear on this.) When I talked about about passing, I was assuming that the invader passes, not the defender. By refusing to play and also refusing to acknowledge the dead group, Black forces White to place more stones than can be captured, reducing White's score. Presumably White is a beginner so she didn't play to exact moves needed to capture with the least effort, so in this example Black has placed five stones, then refuses to play more or acknowledge the group is dead. White has played four stones, and must play three more to capture. In this way White has lost two points (-7 in territory, +5 in captures).

The only ways I can see to prevent this are:

1. "White, you should have played smarter." I find this unsatisfying because beginners shouldn't be punished by one scoring system over another.

2. Black must surrender a stone for each pass. That will make the scoring more fair. But online games don't support this.

3. Use Chinese scoring, where White wouldn't lose any points regardless of how poor she plays. This is most satisfying to me, because the pointlessness of continuing the invasion are obvious to all players regardless of skill. Unfortunately, online games frequently don't support Chinese scoring.

I promise I'll quit beating this dead horse now.

Bill: Eric, I'm not exactly sure what is happening, but does pass, and now Black claims that and friends are alive, while White claims that they are dead?

Assuming that to be the case, first, fill the dame.

Born To Lose, continued (1).  

passes, because White says that is not a dame. Since it would be if Black is right, Black fills it. (The dame do not have to be filled by play, but it is convenient for the diagram, and may be necessary if playing online.)

Next, play it out, with the attacker playing first and the defender playing last.

Born To Lose, continued (2).  

at .

at .

at , capturing the dead Black stones.

makes the final play that keeps the number of stones played to resolve the dispute the same.

OK? Nobody makes a pass that costs a point. That is only necessary in extreme cases, such as where the only play is to fill an eye needed for life.

Eric545: Aha! Here is the answer I was looking for, from the page Question About Japanese Scoring: