Forum for Aji

funny business [#1906]

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tapir: pre-discussion from main page (2009-07-26 21:48) [#6239]

tapir: I don't like the "funny business" joke and feel the urge to discuss it before leaving this in the article (thus i partly undid the edit). I can't even guess what is meant by aji with this funny business stuff. However, I like the idea of an example of usage section for major and not so easy to understand go terms.

EdLee: Hi tapir, it is not a joke at all, but a sincere attempt. My reasoning is self-explanatory in the text. The original "definition" -- Possibilities which are left in a position -- is so broad that it is basically useless. How is that different from any "legal moves"? I also cannot guess what is meant by aji with this "definition". As such, I find this wording to be very poor. In fact, I propose that in English, it is impossible to have an exact definition of aji, and that "unfinished business" and "funny business" come closest to include all the nuances of aji. Comments welcome.

tapir: I have no clue what "funny business" is supposed to mean, none at all. It doesn't help my understanding. Possibilities left are imho specific possibilities (an invasion sequence, a ko possibility, dead stones threatening to resurrect, or see probe, a play to setup a specific aji) lingering. That is, they may even be impossible now, but their presence is a burden maybe forcing you to play more timid, slower etc. somewhere else. Ladders in the opening are a good example, or the way one sacrifices stones and uses their remaining aji to play forcing moves on the outside. I guess this page could clarify this by adding an example of usage section.

daal: Although I like EdLee's term "funny business" to describe aji, it has the major shortcoming that in common usage, it also often implies dishonesty, which is not an element of aji. Although this does not apply to "unfinished business," this term is somewhat unwieldy. Perhaps better would be its synonym: "loose ends," which carries the same connotations as unfinished business. Nonetheless, the difficulty remains that all of the above terms are idioms, and as such might not be understood by non-native English speakers. However, I find both "unfinished business" and "loose ends" to be useful analogies. The question remains whether they are practical. How do these examples sound?

"This unfinished business could cause white some trouble." "White has a lot of loose ends to tie up." "I left white with a bit of unfinished business." "This move ties up whites loose ends."

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Dieter: funny business (2009-07-25 19:00) [#6233]

Hi Ed,

I appreciate the fact that "possibilities left in a position" is too vague and something must be done to distinguish it from any legal move. But I agree with tapir that "funny business" is not the way to go. "Unfinished business" is more likeable, but not quite true for all aji.

You could also say there is potential in any situation.

Perhaps the concept of temperature should be involved.

Good luck!

tapir: Re: funny business (2009-07-26 14:37) [#6234]

I want to stress some points

1) any explanation should be comprehensible for non-native speakers. I've still no clue what funny business is about.

2) possibilities does not mean any "possible" move, but specific possibilities, that is in the butterfly formation there is 3-3 aji (+ at several other points), but nobody ever talked about the 2-3, or 2-2 aji there.

3) unfinished business indicates (subliminally) leaving business unfinished is somehow bad or even there is only unfinished business after you started some business in the area, both ideas are misleading

EdLee: ((no subject)) (2009-07-26 17:34) [#6237]

Hi tapir and Dieter,

Thank you for this discussion. This "talk" feature is nice! :)

First let me reiterate: I really like Go, and I am sincerely trying to make this a good page for "aji", and that I am not making a joke or being facetious.

Here are my ideas:

1) Even "specific possibilities" is meaningless and wrong, because every legal move IS a "specific possibility."

2) "any explanation should be comprehensible for non-native speakers." -- I guess I don't understand this. One can look up these terms in English dictionaries, just like any other English word or phrases used here in this wiki; for example, words like "potential" and "influence". This is an English wiki. If this was a French or German wiki, I would have no problems if it used some French idioms or German phrases to explain a concept if it is very appropriate in French or German.

My biggest problem with the existing wording is it implies there IS a "definition" for aji in English (or in other languages). I propose there is not. In all the "definitions" so far, they always have to go back to giving specific examples to explain what is going on. My first idea is to remove the word "definition" or "meaning" and replace it with wording like "describes". That is why my idea was to say "Aji can be described as unfinished business or funny business." I did not say "Aji is defined as unfinished business." This was a very specific choice of wording I made.

The original wording also has many other problems. For example:

"Those possibilities are latent and cannot be used immediately" -- This is wrong. When to exploit aji is up to the player. Some aji can be exploited immediately, some cannot. To say that aji cannot be used immediately is wrong.

"Capturing stones with bad aji" -- This phrasing is ambiguous. Does it mean "capturing (stones that have bad aji)" or "capturing stones, but leaving bad aji behind"? Also, this should be listed as an Example of aji. In my edition, I changed it to talk talk about good and bad aji in terms of good and bad shapes, which is more general and correct.

Since someone included the analogy of a stone in a shoe, I don't mind if "unfinished business" and "funny business" are included as an analogy.

But I must stress I have serious problems with any kind of "definition" of aji. I would feel much better if this section starts out with "Aji can be thought of as..." or "Aji can be described as..." instead of using words like "defined" or "definition". And it would be best if the section goes on to say "It is best to give some examples to illustrate aji."

What do you think? :)

tapir: Re: ((no subject)) (2009-07-26 18:25) [#6238]

sorry, i don't doubt that yours is a serious contribution, though i really did not understand funny business and got it wrong. no, i don't have a dictionary to look for idiomatic phrases like "funny business". "aji can be described as funny business" is simply incomprehensible or meaningless to me (and supposedly to a lot of SL readers). ok, i admittedly have internet access, so after a search over several online dictionaries i can indeed figure out a probable meaning for it (e.g. [ext] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/funny+business) but does a definition like "improper or unethical conduct" really explains anything, isn't it a little misleading as well (s. hamete)? and should not the explanation be made in the most formal and easy-to-understand language possible?

specific possibility does not indicate every legal move. there was a discussion about counting where bill wrote sth. like (as far as i recall) "you can't give miai values for wrong moves, because the idea of move values imply best local answers." (DoInferiorPlaysHaveValues) it's the same with aji i guess. here, the aji of b to f is unheard of, the aji of a is referred to commonly.

[Diagram]
Example  
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68.125.166.87: aji definition (2009-07-26 22:55) [#6243]

Bill: I just now did a web search to see if I could find a good pro example or two. But I found this explanation of aji from Magari Reiki.

In a certain position there may be a problem of whether to play at A or at B. In that case you may refrain from deciding the local shape, but later play at A or B depending upon the whole board. To leave that choice behind is called aji.

Paraphrased from [ext] this web page.

Choice is not a direct translation. Room or space (to do something) is more literal. Notice that Magari does not say that the possibility or the moves themselves constitute aji, but leaving the options behind. Another pro might say something different. The point of aji is not just that different plays are possible, but the fact that they are preserved.

X
71.192.14.49: Re: aji definition (2009-07-26 23:03) [#6244]

Bob McGuigan: And we do have the term ajikeshi which refers to not leaving options behind.

Dieter: Re: aji definition (2009-07-27 00:17) [#6245]
[Diagram]
No Aji  

In this example, there is no aji. Black has surrounded White, White lives, unconditionally, even if Black gets a hundred moves in succession. Only White can move legally inside her group, but these moves are so senseless that we shouldn't even bother mentioning them. Black has a thick position, connected with plenty of eyespace and radiating influence. Black's connection, I would say, has good aji.

[Diagram]
No Aji - good aji  

Here, Black has a legal move at a but it does not affect the White group in any way. We cannot speak of aji in White's position. Black's position is strongly connected. Though White can still kill this group, with many successive moves, the Black group is thick. The connection has good aji.

[Diagram]
Ladder aji  

Let's assume here that the ladder works. A ladder is the simplest form of aji. Clearly what happens diagonally accross the board, affects Black's connection. Black is connected, but the aji is clear. Next, a is honte for Black.

[Diagram]
Cut aji  

Removing two stones from the previous position, Black's stones have some (bad) aji. White can cut at a or peep at b. If the ladder after the cut at a does not work for White, it is probably best to leave this situation, until the global position has shown that cutting works, or peeping has become interesting enough not to wait for the cut to become possible.

I believe this diagram is what Bill refers to as Magari's definition. It's about possibilities left in a (otherwise locally played out) position, much as the original definition on the page said.

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207.71.215.28: aji explained by examples (2009-07-27 08:12) [#6249]

I like both Bill's and Dieter's directions. Both explanations refrain from using words like "definition" or "defined". In Bill or MagariReiki's case, the example is whether to play A or B, and it ends with "To leave that choice behind is called aji." It does not say "Aji is defined as..." And Dieter shows examples with diagrams, and each case describes the situation as no aji, good aji, or bad aji. Again, no use of the word "definition". I believe this way to explain aji by examples, instead of by a rigid, artificial definition, is the correct way to go. Thank you.

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tapir: Re: aji explained by examples (2009-07-27 13:20) [#6251]

Even in earlier versions this page wasn't an example of rigid definitionism - despite the chapter being called "definition". I would like to see more examples of actual usage from pro commentaries subtly grouped and ordered to indicate different fields of meaning... Tapir

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194.78.35.195: ((no subject)) (2009-07-27 12:23) [#6250]

Dieter: I believe you will find me guilty of the taxonomism behind this article. While I was describing the examples in this thread, I was thinking that aji is an interesting case where we must go about using examples and where there is no good translation. I can indeed say that "aji" has become a new concept in my vocabulary, like I have built "tree" into my brain, after my father showed me various trees. He didn't tell me "a tree is a natural living object, consisting of a trunk, branches and leaves ..." And so the pendulum continues.

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tapir: "possibilities left" (2010-01-13 17:45) [#6929]

The "possibilities left in a position" may be slightly misleading. As quite often the possibilities are actively created (and then left for later use). E.g. probes must be played early enough to force the opponent to choose (without knowing what will happen later) thus creating the later possibility. My earlier misunderstanding (and I believe this is rather common) was that aji is generally big in the beginning and reduced during the game. The Aji-related activity (creating aji by probes, making moves which leave more aji behind than other moves) is easily overseen by weak players as myself. Even the proposal of "unfinished business" as translation seems a good indication of this misunderstanding.

Answers recommended. Tapir

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tapir: funny business (2010-04-15 01:06) [#7634]

I take back all I said... I heared a lesson from Jennie Shen today where she uses "and no funny business left here" in pretty much the situation where other people may want to talk about aji.

Cheers Tapir.

PS I wish my english were better.

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tapir: nerai, aji and funny business (2011-09-01 11:39) [#8629]

I have to admit that I possibly was aiming at nerai, when I wrote my first ideas on aji. I already acknowledged that [ext] here. If it is possible to draw a conclusion from my confusion, I would say we should point out the existence of the distinct concept nerai on this page. Understanding a term by distinguishing it from other terms, may limit the "definitionist" touch of the page. Also, I guess the confusion is shared by other people who tried to think about "possibilities in a position", at least I was led to think about "specific possibilities" that is sequences I aim to play later.

We should take a look at our examples from this perspective as well. Almost all the aji examples given include controversy among deshis whether they are good or bad examples or whether it is aji at all.

As I already said one year earlier, after hearing one of my teachers using the term, I have no meaningful objections to "funny business" (just unfortunately I can't directly import into German).

I would like to bring the page to a more unified appearance again.

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204.111.113.73: Aji and 'funny business' (2023-05-01 03:52) [#12253]

I love this discussion. The conceptual nuances in Go are so elegant. I think funny business is an interesting take on Aji - I'm thinking about the ambiguous intentionality element (not knowing if or when Aji will be exploited - or by which player ...). I think more could also be mined from the 'taste' metaphor. Though I am not a Japanese speaker, this seems like a powerful way to think of Aji. If we think of taste, so many dimensions - and not always clear if it is 'good' or 'bad' - AND, this can change over time (the initial taste, and the 'after-taste'). I propose that 'funny taste' may be more apt - this introduces quite a deal of subjectivity, as taste is a matter of preference and context/sequence. Again, thanks for this tasty discussion! I think Aji is my favorite term - most mysterious/ambiguous/complex/elegant.

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86.157.243.151: Aji = nuisance value (2023-05-01 10:37) [#12254]

JohnF I think the main problem here is seeking a _definition_ of aji. There are very many things (even just in go, look at fuseki, joseki, yose, bent four in the corner) that cannot be usefully defined, but they can be explained. Explanations involve context, associations and nuances. To give a good explanation, it helps to have a good starting point. "Funny business" can work as a starting point, though I personally would quibble about it. In my Go Wisdom, where I give a very long explanation, my starting point is "Aji refers to stones that have nuisance value." I then go on to give an explanation that is long because there is a lot of ground to cover. First, western aji is not Japanese aji. The Japanese distinguish te ga aru, aji, aya, fukumi, nerai and weaknesses, in roughly that order of high to low nuisance value. To understand the concept properly, you further have to understand the difference ajibaru and ajitsuki, and also derived usages such as ko aji and semeaji. There are also related concepts such as probes and reducing moves. The result is that the GW explanation ends up with over 1,00 words (+ cross references + proverbs). But this is text only. To achieve real understanding one has to see actual examples, and this is the real point of GW. In all my books that use the GW concept, there are dozens of actual indexed examples from real play where Japanese pro commentators have used the specific words(aji, aya, fukimi, ajibaru etc). The result (with time) should be that the reader will not end up with a definition but with an intuitive feel for _everything_ (both strategic and tactical) that is involved in the concept. In the same way we learn to walk. A definition of "putting one foot in front of the other in order to perambulate" is never going to help your toddler learn to toddle, walk, then run.

 
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