Recently, criticism has been leveled at the amateur level of the SL deshi. We can all agree, a little more professional approach to the concrete areas of SL would go far in deflecting such criticism.
I suggest we make a collective effort to 'cite' any information we add to SL joseki. What does a joseki citation entail? How about:
I don't know about everyone else, but I learn by example.
I think this kind of 'citation' would take our joseki reference to a whole new level of awesomeness. :)
The most recent known pro game with an online game record in which a joseki appeared would be interesting, I think. It would not only give a sense of current pro opinion and frequency (rare joseki would tend to have older citations) but would provide context for the chosen sequence of play, as you indicate. I think that context is very important. Once there are a few stones on the board, some joseki are more equal than others.
It's important to be realistic about what can be done here. The repetoire of joseki is immense, so comprehensive coverage of variations is probably not going to happen. What I've found in the Systematic Joseki sections so far is that they do not add much to the material in existing dictionaries.
One option is that SL, because it is dynamic, should trace some recent developments in joseki, but this would require participants who have regular contact with active professionals.
One thing I'd like to see is an analysis of common joseki mistakes. There used to be a database of variations built from amateur games of players of all stengths on KGS, tagged with the frequency of strength range of the players. It was interesting for me to go through it and find variations, for example, that were common but not played by players stronger than 10kyu, or 2dan, or whatever. Usually these are patterns where the normal, intuitive move isn't optimal. Unfortunately, the database had a Korean name that I don't remember, so I can't find it on the internet anymore. The was a python program that generated SGF.
I found it. It's called "soksoo." http://dcs.nac.uci.edu/~strombrg/soksoo/
I disagree to base discussion on citations. Though mentioning sources where available is good, and referring to actual games is even better. But I fear that the whole approach to the opening on SL would be even more antiquarian with an "citation needed" policy for often the citation would be from joseki dictionaries.
Bob McGuigan: References to sources are a good thing, but many, if not most, people could not provide the kind of references you describe. Even if such were given it would not mean the information is correct, though, since joseki undergo re-evaluation. Some sequences that were considered joseki 30 years ago are not considered joseki any longer, and there are many older pro games in which they were used. My impression is that many of the joseki pages depend on material more-or-less copied from published joseki dictionaries, sometimes including sequences that even the dictionary says are not joseki. What counts, anyhow, is the reasoning behind the moves, not just the move sequence.
I argued strongly against doing this kind of thing on the Systematic Joseki pages, but here's my rough argument again.
The points I made then, addressing both when it was last played and the relative frequency of a given jeongseok:
The first time a joseki was played is kind of nice to know and, unless there is a correction, it never changes. But the last time? I lack the ambition to even keep track of that for my favorite players (and the expertise to do so even if I had the time), much less for several hundred players playing games all of the time with tens of thousands of possible joseki.
I'd like to add to that a few additional comments:
thank you for your thoughts.
Bob, I agree that many people will not be able to include a 'citation' when they add a new joseki. I suggest that if a deshi finds such information that they add such to SL. I would really enjoy it.
I am most interested in the first use of the joseki -- the 'inventor' of the move.
Much harder (and time-consuming) to provide (and update) are the uses of a joseki in context. Despite the difficulty of providing this information, I still urge motivated deshi to try. :)