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Moved from Joseki Test: Duplicate? [#159]

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ArnoHollosi: Moved from Joseki Test: Duplicate? (2010-01-25 13:48) [#460]

Why do we need this page? We have SystematicJoseki already. Further joseki lines should be incorporated there.

RiffRaff: Final positions, not starting positions (?) (2005-11-13 11:25) [#461]

As far as I (hazily) understand, their intent is to index Joseki by "final" positions rather than starting positions (e.g. the empty corner at SystematicJoseki). I'm very hazy as to what the benefit is of this though.

MAsterdam: Re: Final positions, not starting positions (?) (2005-11-13 13:23) [#462]

So it might just be a misnomer. Maybe the author could shed some light by suggesting a more appropriate name?

reply I created that page (2005-11-13 13:27) [#463]

I created that page to allow people who already know joseki to have a quick way to refresh their memory without having to open their joseki books. The Joseki are sorted according to initial context, so there is a logical progression. Also, I think it can help someone associate the moves to the final position and therefore make choosing a joseki easier. Of course, if you don't know joseki, this page is not for you.

Very soon, I will add result pages, these will be the same except that there will be numbers to indicate the order of moves.

This is an exercise to help people master joseki...

I hope you don't mind if I continue this project...

I will put it elsewhere on the web if you think this should not be here.

MAsterdam: Re: I created that page (2005-11-13 13:33) [#464]

I think it's a nice idea.

I'm not good enough at go to judge wether it will help learning joseki, but I suspect to some people (like me) it could surely help to quickly form a mental image of expected consequences.

I do not like the current name, though.

It will be a lot of work. I think you will get help if you state your goals somewhat more extensively. Also, I suspect that a personal home page would trigger even more help.

reply Doubts (2005-11-13 15:55) [#465]

Bob McGuigan: I'm not sure how useful this will be. For one thing some final positions could be reached by several joseki sequences. Will all of these be in the answer section? What is the source for the joseki? There are many joseki sources, like Ishida's dictionary or Kogo's dictionary that have sequences labelled as joseki incorrectly. Will the creator be willing to do the thousands of diagrams needed for a thorough job? It seems to me that this encourages memorization of joseki sequences without understanding the reasons for the moves which, as we know, is a bad way to study. How will this be indexed? A database implies some sort of search facility. If I understand the purpose, it seems this would work better as a training method in which a diagram is presented (randomly or not) and the user tries to recreate the sequence that lead to the position, like automated flash cards, rather than as a systematic listing. But since joseki occur in games as sequences of moves I think something like an identify-the-next-move method is better for learning joseki. For myself I learn joseki sequences more as dynamic processes, than as static final positions.

DrStraw: Re: Doubts (2005-11-13 19:34) [#468]

I was thinking along these lines myself and putting together a reply in my mind, then I read you response. I agree completely. Memorizing a final position is, in my opinion, only useful in so far as it gives some idea of what is a reasonable position. As you say, joseki are dynamic, not static, and any representation such as this seems to me to be of limited usefulness.

Frango: ((no subject)) (2005-11-13 16:06) [#466]

Sorry if I have not made this clear, but I already mentioned that this is intended for people who are already studying joseki using books that contain explanations...

As for final positions being possibly reached by several joseki, I am organizing the joseki in sections, so you always know what the first three moves were.

reply Yay for Frango! (2005-11-13 16:44) [#467]

Personally, I think this is a great idea. It's a very useful exercise to look at a position and try to see how it came into being. To Bob McGuigan, I don't think this will at ALL 'encourage memorization of joseki', at least not if used properly. In fact, I think it will actually increase the understanding of the moves if you have to look at a position and understand what series of moves led to it.

As for your doubts that the author will be willing to do a thorough job, have no fear -- Frango is one of the most thorough people I know.

tapir: ((no subject)) (2010-01-25 13:49) [#7116]

tapir: I like the idea of a final position index / replay test. I am not sure about the best implementation. All content is still available at diverse places (most notably Just Joseki).

Regards Tapir, who removed the old josekitest-pages

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