: Re: Noise on SL in general
(2005-11-06 17:26) [#392]
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Morten Dieter, I agree with you in most respects. Like you, I don't (want to) care about clans per se, but annoyed at the attitude some of the entrants display. To be honest, I am hoping that the issue will blow over, like so many other issues have on SL...
To get back to the actual issue at hand: although I believe that SL should be a home for initial discussion of new concepts and ideas related to Go, and Go servers, I believe that SL should not become the 'home page' for clans or, as you put it, "free webspace for clubs who are too lazy to develop their own virtual space". As the Clans specifically belong to KGS, it is KGS which should provide them with an outlet for their discussions and flaming.
If sufficently many users agree with this, we could kindly ask established clans (by an appropriate message on 'their page') to move their outlet to KGS. I still think SL would be a fair plce for 'new' clans to try to find followers.
This highlights a general issue on SL: there is no way to differentiate the wheat from the chaff... 'minor' pages will, by much posting attract more 'visibility' on RecentChanges than less heavily posted, but maybe more 'major' pages. Trying to change this would, apart from changing years of practice, also require much more 'administration'. Your suggestions are welcome...
: Re: Noise on SL in general
(2005-11-06 17:27) [#393]
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Tamsin: Dieter, my friend, nothing is here that cannot be edited or removed if it outlives its usefulness (uselessness?). I can see your point, but on the other hand, should not this site be about all aspects of go? Online go is here to stay, and people of course are going to discuss issues specific to online go, and of course there will be a bias to KGS because of its popularity among English-speaking go players. The only thing I would ask is that we show tolerance to one another; there will always be technical material, and there will always be non-technical "social" material. Choose what you want to get out of SL and let others do likewise. Anybody who wants to learn about almost any technical term, concept or issue can easily do so by using SL's superb search tools; Recent Changes is not only way to access SL.
Admittedly, though, perhaps you fear we will reach the stage where it will be difficult to navigate through new material, because Recent Changes shows so many new pages and contributions, in which case it may be a good idea to come up with a new way of classifying and tagging material.
In the meantime, though, perhaps it would help if people remembered why the "minor edit" check box is there. It is, indeed, not very interesting to see that Clan MacCampbellDouglasKnox? has gained one more player. And looking back, I see that I have myself transgressed, therefore I will change my ways.
(Oh, by the way, is there a way to reach you by e-mail? I have tried firstname.lastname@example.org but without success. It would be wonderful to catch up with you, you know.)
: Re: Noise on SL in general (more replies)
(2005-11-06 17:28) [#394]
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DrStraw: My opinion is somewhere between those of Dieter and Tamsin, althought probably closer to Dieter's. How easy would it be to set up a requirement that all new pages be classified using keywords and then give options in the user preferences to check which types of pages are shown in the recent changes list?
Steve: I am one of those Recent Changes Junkies who goes through just about all the changes, including minor edits. I have started just ignoring the pages which seem to be listing clan changes etc. My proposed solution is to introduce "unwatched" pages, which are like the "watched" pages in recent changes. If a page annoys me with it's changes, I'd like to be able to tune it out, while someone else may be interested in that change. Update: It seems my proposal is already supported by SL. All watched pages in watch category 3 are automatically not displayed in Recent Changes. You can set which pages are watched, and in which category, here.
While DrStraw's suggestion has merit, it may turn out to be a problem later, such as making the short summary field mandatory: as that may lead to "." in the summary field overly often, many pages will just be assigned the top keyword on the list. And of course, wiki beginners who may be strong at Go are less likely to contribute if the page edit process is too complicated.
Alex: I tend to agree with Dieter and Morten. The signal-to-noise ratio on SL has been steadily declining since I started using the site two-and-a-bit years ago because of the arrival of many new users to seem to miss the point of the library and start posting their own, only tangentially related material, without seriously browsing it first to see what's here. When new, quality material gets posted, it tends to be overlooked in the flood of online go club/informal tournament chat and updates, and redundant, content-free pages created by users who really want to create a page but don't have the knowledge to add something meaningful (tip to these users: an intelligent question often creates way more buzz than an intelligent statement, and definitely way more than an inane one, and intelligent questions can be asked by players of any level). The introduction of clans and the use of SL as a space for them to track their membership and have discussions is only going to compound the problem. I vote for telling clans to get their own space elsewhere, or introducing something like DrStraw says and create "Go Club" and "Clan" keywords that can then be ignored by those not interested.
IanDavis: I think perhaps there is a case for saying that the This is just a minor edit box should be checked (or ticked) by default. That way people would consider how important their comments are, and then if needs be, uncheck the box to tell the world.
: Re: Noise on SL in general (even more replies)
(2005-11-06 17:29) [#395]
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kokiri - well the watchlist option was a bit of a revelation when someone first mentioned it to me, so i guess it does merit bringing up again - i currently filter out every page with kgs or clan in the title, and am the happier for it.
I think that there is an easy argument to make that kgs itself should be the home for much of the stuff that gets posted here, but i take its presence as a sign of the success of SL.
One half of the library is a repository of knowledge, but i do think that SL as an active experience/medium for debate & discussion etc. is the greater half. On the whole i'd rather have a vibrant library with lots going on, albeit perhaps with a few kids on skateboards than a quiet dusty one with only some oap's asleep in the corner. I think it's like panning for gold - you have to wash through a lot of mud in order to get the valuable stuff and so up to a point more volume is inherently better.
It seems to me that the noise pretty much remains constant albeit on different subjects at different times, whilst the really interesting content is, by it's very nature, a more fickle beast and so ebbs and flows. So we're in a bit of an ebb at the moment? that's not inherently a problem - the problem would come if the level of noise starts to drive away the core contributors, strong or weak, who make SL what it is. I don't think we're getting to that stage are we?
As a more practical suggestion, perhaps introducing an 'online go' page type and allowing one to watchlist all the pages of a given type (or can I already do that?) would be a way of allowing people to customise their SL more readily. (edit: and I like ID's suggestion about minor editing - i'm forever forgetting to tick until afterwards ;-)
Bill: Well, I'm sort of in left field, I guess. ;-) Go related social discussion does not bother me. After all, we are amateurs and human beings. What does bother me is the prospect of SL acting as a kind of bulletin board service for KGS. Shouldn't KGS be providing these services for its members itself? Should SL favor any go server, even by default? (Since any go server or its members can post here freely.)
Kenn: SL does have categories clubs & places, and people, and I'm glad since I both found my local players and also recruited new players this way. I have my own webspace for my club, but SL is an invaluable tool in promoting that page. Filtering out appropriate categories and keywords seems like it should more than suffice to ignore the clans and homepages. I think having the minor edit box checked by default based on a page's keywords or having more than two levels of editing significance is a clever idea that might meet many people's needs. I know that I have, once or twice, forgotten to check that box while I was restructuring the redundant pages for the splintered (now united!) clubs in my area.
excession: i'd happily provide a bulletin board / whatever for these "Clan folks" that seem to be causing the current problems (I access through RecentChanges too). However from the sounds of things, it is more deep rooted than that. (and I agree with Ian's comment re minor edit being ticked by default :)
Calvin: SL is a Wiki, which makes it hard to use as a forum. Even this page, for example, would be better in a forum than a Wiki. IMHO, problem with the KGS Clan stuff isn't so much that there aren't similar discussions about other servers, it's just that that content is clearly transient, whereas the bulk of the Wiki content should be of slightly more lasting value and for a more general audience. If you have one or move forums hosted within SL (I don't think linking would be sufficient, unless it was seemless), then transient discussions could be moved to forums.
- I second the request for a "Clan" keyword, the clan spam is really getting worse every day here. It seems like the clan folks don't want to use the "minor edit" option, just look at the recent changes page: Every small edit appears there.
Drimgere: You know, I don't want to seem insensitive, i totally missed the minor edit box and that resulted in some of this spam, I'll make sure to use it from now on. Is it really such a big deal, you aren't forced to read all the recent changes, you can just skip over it....It seems like people here get offended real easily. In my mind Sensei's is both a source of knowledge and a place for go players to have go related social activity. ;-)
- Drimgere, you can check the "Default for MinorEdit" box in your user preferences.
Drimgere Now I just feel stupid..... I haven't explored the prefs yet, but now I'llmake sure to turn that on