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Discussion for black 40

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

daniel the smith: I propose a. Now that we can push through at z I don't think our two stones are important.

Kirby I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.

JoazBanbeck I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.

Dusk Eagle It may be heavy, but I'm going to vote b to save our two stones. I think it's better than the alternative of giving them up.

daniel the smith @Joaz: Lol. Ok, I vote 1.0 for a also, so I'll play that in a bit unless someone beats me to it.

Diagram 40.A.1  

daniel the smith This looks so good for us that I think MW will not play it.

JoazBanbeck This looks so good for MW that I think he will play it.

Diagram 40.A.2  

daniel the smith This looks great to me, also.

Discussion for black 38

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

Kirby When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...

JoazBanbeck I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )

I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.

Kirby Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).

daniel the smith Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?

JoazBanbeck Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )

BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.

Dusk Eagle I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at e. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.

JoazBanbeck Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.

Dusk Eagle I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.

Kirby I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.

daniel the smith 1.0 for e.

JoazBanbeck I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.

To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.

daniel the smith I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!

Dusk Eagle I'm also voting e.

Kirby I guess I'll switch to 1.0 for 'e'.

Diagram 38.A.1  

is a bit worrying to me (Kirby).

Diagram 38.A.2  

JoazBanbeck I'm not worried. I like 'a'.

Diagram 38.A.3  

Kirby Maybe we can live on top with our sente, but we may strengthen white in the process. I guess we should make sure that we are ready for such a scenario.

Diagram 38.A.4  

Kirby Also, it might be kind of tough to live, too. White has some forcing moves. I'd like to make sure we consider every possibility about not dying before playing away from the top... :-)

Diagram 38.C.1  

JoazBanbeck I like this better than 'a', because it has the same benefits of threatening to conect, but it does not allow white the slide at 'x', as 'a' does.

Diagram 38.E.1  

JoazBanbeck I think that we have to do something about our left side group.

Dusk Eagle After this, can't we just slide to f? If white plays c, we nobi and cut, if white plays something less severe, we're in the clear. White might try g but I think we can handle that fine too.

Discussion for black 36

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

daniel the smith Alright, those of you who thought this was a good idea can show me why, as this looks like a disaster to me... :)

Dusk Eagle Sorry I disappeared for a bit; I took a short break from Go. Anyway, a looks like the natural followup, since I assume the reason we kicked is to prevent white from connecting under. It's kind of ugly and I'm not thrilled with it, but it seems to work.

Kirby 0.75 for 'a' from me. If he responds - though he very well may not, I think it's important to then split white by moving toward the right side of the board (around 'b' or 'c'). Anyway, to use our last stone effectively, I want to play 'a'. I want to vote 0.25 for 'd', since it seems more likely that white will respond to it (after which, we can ignore, and go to split white around 'b' or 'c'). I still like 'a' better, though, because it will make white's top left group weak if he doesn't respond locally.

daniel the smith I'll vote for a, too, then. I can hear our poor stones weeping, though...

Kirby It's been a bit of time, now. Shall we play 'a'?

Dusk Eagle Fine by me. It's got my vote.

Discussion for black 34

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

JoazBanbeck This feels a bit desperate to me. He has a group up top that can be threatened with enclosure if we play around 'x'. He has a side group that can be threated with death if we get something like 'a' or 'b' and the upper left corner. And he has an isolated stone in the middle of the board. If we flail about in the right manner, we should be able to make threats and make our group much stronger.

I suggest something like 'a' thru 'd'.

Kirby We could also consider 'e'. I'm actually slightly uncomfortable in this position. Our group is a bit weak. I'd like to strengthen it in some way that doesn't result in giving him a lot in return. I don't know what the answer is, though. I definitely don't like 'b' for exactly the refutation that Joaz has written out.

JoazBanbeck I don't see how 'e' works for us. My first reflex is to say that one should not stengthen a weak stone by attaching to it. @Kirby: What is your intended continuation? Can you do diagram 34.E.1?

It is probably too slow, but I added 'f' and 'g' as possibilities. I'm developing a lot more respect for MW's latest move, and I'm currently favoring 'g'.

daniel the smith x is my first thought. g feels kinda heavy. Can he really connect underneath if we play x?

Dusk Eagle Once again, I like Magicwand's move. It feels like it has good flow to it. The problem with x, I think, is that Magicwand can play c. I'm thinking about pincering with h. He can't connect at c, because we can then ko-lock him, but if he jumps out, we can connect at e. It also follows the proverb(?) "pincer before running."

daniel the smith If we play h, can't MW just play e? It would prevent our connection and threaten to make his own at the same time. I'm not sure we'd have time to prevent his connection...

daniel the smith (later) OK, I just thought about it some more. I think h and g both fail after white i: we have to lose sente to break the connection. h is better, as we we'll have a useful stone afterwards, and it will be a running fight.

OK, how about i itself for us? If white plays d, we have a choice--scoop out the side and sack the center, or forcibly separate and sack the stone at i. Something to think about. We have a great position on the right but we're paying dearly for it over here. I wish we didn't have this heavy group to deal with. I don't think we really have a good move here. My preference right now, I think, is to find the best way to sack that heavy group. It's tying our hands, I want it to go away. We can't fight here, we're outnumbered 2-1 at least. I guess if I have to pick from the available options, I'd choose h. If it were my own game I'd play i as an experiment.

Dusk Eagle Even if he does play i, we can disconnect him later (sadly, I don't think it would be good to do right away. I don't want to sac our cutting stones, but I still vote h, unless someone comes up with a better idea.

daniel the smith No activity for a while. Time to vote? I think h is winning?

JoazBanbeck There is no way I can vote for a move without havng seen the diagram that shows the next few moves.

BTW, are we over-focussed on the left side? Is this one of the situations that might be best left alone while we gain something someplace else?

Has MW hacked Daniel's account? We can't sacrifice that group!

daniel the smith Lol. No, that's really me. I added one possibility after h.

Kirby I'm OK with pretty much anything right now. I'd like to get the game moving, again.

daniel the smith OK, people, this is ridiculous. :) Vote! I'm playing h if no one says anything in the next 24 hours or so.

JoazBanbeck IMHO, 'h' is extremely low priority. ( If we don't play 'h', is he going to play it soon? ) I vote for 'd'.

Kirby I vote 1/3 for 'x', 1/3 for 'h', and 1/3 for 'd', I guess.

daniel the smith Argh of course you guys made it a tie. :) Assuming DE still likes h I think we should play h. Or Kirby could make up his mind. :)

h: 1.0 (dts) + .33 (Kirby) = 1.33 x: .33 (Kirby) d: 1.0 (Joaz) + .33 (Kirby) = 1.33

Kirby Ok, then. 'd' it is.

Diagram 34.A.1  

JoazBanbeck This is the crucial line for 'a', I think.

Diagram 34.B.1  

JoazBanbeck This may be the refutation of 'b'.

Diagram 34.C.1  

JoazBanbeck This is my initial guess of best play after 'c'.

Diagram 34.G.1  

JoazBanbeck It is slow, but it is strong, and it eliminates all of white's tactical tricks.

Diagram 34.H.1  

daniel the smith One possibility?

JoazBanbeck That should qualify as a refutation of 'h'. DE, are you there?

Discussion for black 32

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

daniel the smith Oh, I like that move from white. I'm not sure where to go; a, b, and c all seem somewhat interesting. I'm certain z is terrible but I'm drawn to it, also.

Dusk Eagle Yeah, I'm kind of embarrassed that I brushed him playing that move off so quickly without seriously considering it. One thing I'm learning right now is the value of that right-angle shape - when I was weaker, I hated it, but now I'm noticing and using it more and more. But I digress.

Anyway, I think we should play d now. Magicwand has locked our corner group into the corner, so let's settle ourselves comfortably. Otherwise, he might take the corner, which makes his group very strong, ours quite weak and is quite a huge point swing. One of the reasons I didn't vote for the corner last move is because we still had access to the center. With that gone, I think now is the time.

daniel the smith Wouldn't that harm our weak group?

Dusk? Diagram 32.D is what I see.

JoazBanbeck I think that the existence of 'z' is one of the reasons that we don't need to play 'd'. He cannot hurt our upper left group. We have eyes regardless of his most vigorous attack.

I like 'e' first ( if I read correctly, it threatens to cut ) followed by 'a' ( or something just a bit looser )

( BTW, I changed the diagram label slightly. Hope that's ok with everyone. )

Dusk Eagle Let's say we give white two moves in the corner (two moves, so that he can't take the corner in sente). Can we live with z? (Diagram 32.Tenuki.1.) If not, do we really want to give white the corner in sente?

Kirby I don't think that the top left is urgent. I vote 0.8 for 'a', and 0.2 for 'e'.

daniel the smith I'm not sure about d, I added 32.D.2. I do agree with DE that we can't ignore two moves against that corner. I like Joaz's idea but I want to think about it more.

Dusk Eagle Diagram 32.E.1 makes sense to me. I do have a question about it though - what will we do if he cuts us as in 32.E.2?

JoazBanbeckIf he cuts like that, we play as in diagram 32.E.3.

BTW, I'm re-reading opening comments for this move. I don't see why you guys are impressed with MW's move. I think that the exchange of our last for his last was a good deal for us. His was a purely defensive move which will yield him approximately zero points in the long run. Its sole virtue was that it connected two weak groups, and it does not do even that particularly well, as we still have forcing moves - such as 'e' - which resurrect the threat to cut. I'd love to keep making him play zero-point defensive moves.

If it comes to voting, I'm in favor of 'e', but I could get behind a slightly more modest form of 'a' - particularly a two-space pincer. Can those of you in favor of 'a' perhaps re-position it?

Kirby I think playing below 'a' (i.e. a looser pincer) is good, too. I just feel that a pincer will work well with the last move we played. I also like 'e'. Basically, white has two groups here, and I want to get both of them weak. If we can do that, we can get some points in compensation. I think tha tmessing around in the top left is a waste of this opportunity, as our group is not in danger. Sure, we might respond if he plays in the top left. But let's take advantage of an opportunity to make his stones weaker. So I'll go for 0.5 for 'f' and 0.5 for 'e'.

JoazBanbeck I made diagram 32.F.1, and, having looked at it a bit, I kinda like 'f'. Now, like Kirby, I'm 50/50 between 'e' and 'f'.

daniel the smith I think I like f best. e feels too thin to me, or something, even though I don't think any of the diagrams below are a convincing refutation of it. .7 f, .3 e.

JoazBanbeck That's a shaky majority for 'f' so far. DE, what say you?

Dusk Eagle Sorry, I'm in exam period, so I may disappear for a day sometimes. Having looked at what others said, I like f as well. I'll split my vote between e, f, and d. 0.4 for d, 0.3 for e, 0.3 for f.

Diagram 32.D.1  

Dusk Eagle Is this likely? Do you think it's good for us? I think so to both questions.

daniel the smith This seems OK for us, but see next diagram...

Diagram 32.D.2  

daniel the smith Can white do this? 'Cause this doesn't look so good for us.

Diagram 32.Tenuki.1  

Dusk Eagle Now what? Or could we play a different B4?

Diagram 32.E.1  

JoazBanbeck This is the follow up which makes B1 sente. Then we play 'a'. Soon afterwards, 'x' becomes a big move for us.

And as long as we are playing moves which threaten the imminent death of some white stones that would connect our upper left group, we need not fear even a dozen moves by MW in the upper left corner.

Diagram 32.E.2  

Dusk Eagle Suppose he does this. What should we do from here? Simply play a?

JoazBanbeck ...and force a cutting stone to become stronger? See 32.E.3 below.

Diagram 32.E.3  

JoazBanbeck Something like this looks good for us. Not only is it objectively a decent game, but it would force MW to play a sstyle that is exactly opposite what he likes.

Diagram 32.E.4  

daniel the smith Making this diagram so I can think about it... I guess this cut is fine for us.

Diagram 32.F.1  

I like the two space pincer a lot better. When he defends the pincered stone, we have an extension to B3.

Discussion for black 30

Prisoners: B 1, W 0  

JoazBanbeck I like 'a' initially, and if it is a threat to kill, I really want to play it. ( Maybe someone with a younger brain than mine will do the tactical analysis. ) If he can ignore it, maybe 'b' or 'c' is better to keep him eyeless and heavy.

daniel the smith I'm 90% sure a is not a threat to kill. However, I think he'll still respond, for these reasons: there would be a lot of ko threats if he doesn't answer; it's very profitable for him to play another move taking the whole corner (one of d-f); his resulting group would be ironclad; and finally, our group would then have a major double peep problem that we either fix in gote or worry about for a long time yet to come. Of course he might also just peep directly (see 30.A.1 -- I don't think so, actually). The moves I'm going to think about are g and b/c.

daniel the smith We have not been doing well at predicting MW's moves (I think only once (?) has his actual response been featured in a diagram ahead of time). I think we should try harder to refute moves that it looks like we might play. I made some diagrams below to try and remedy this problem. Let's try not to be surprised anymore...

Dusk Eagle Daniel, I think you forgot to post g on the board. Anyway, I agree with what you said above - let's discuss what we would play in response, not what Magicwand might play.

Anyway, I was thinking either h or i (maybe a) at first, but now that I've thought about it, they seem like miai, and I can't tell which is better. So I say something like b, to split his middle and right group while pulling our corner group into the center, is good about now. There's no need to choose between two miai moves right now.

JoazBanbeck I agree with most of the above: That prediction has been slack; that more diagrams to check out his moves would help; that the left side is miai. And I like the improved diagram numbering system.

Daniel's diagram 30.A.4 led me to realize that M13 by white is big. It threatens our upper right corner, and resolves much of white's L/D issues. ( See 30.B.1 ) So my current favorite is 'j' ( see 30.J.1 )

daniel the smith I just added g, oops. I like j, I think it's the biggest point on the board now that I see it. Perhaps k is worth thinking about, too. I added 30.J.2-4 to see if white can hurt us if we play j.

I don't like how many forcing moves white has against our marked group, nearly every move in the area is sente for MW. If possible, I would like to reinforce them in sente and then play j.

DE, my point was more that if MW is surprising us with his responses, then we aren't working hard enough to refute/find best white responses to our moves...

JoazBanbeck Not much activity here in the last 24 hours. Are we still trying to convince others? Or is it voting time?

If it is voting time, I like 'j'. I could go with 'k' if you guys preferred.

Dusk Eagle b, j, and k all look pretty good to me, but I like b the most, so I'm going with it.

daniel the smith I'm still liking j, it has my vote. k looks good too, but I think we should post a few follow up diagrams to think about before going for that. I'd prefer it if we waited a bit more for Kirby to have a say, but I also think j is a great move and am ok if we just play it. :) Hmm, I made some comments earlier that the internet seems to have eaten. Oh well, they weren't that important.

Kirby I vote 1.0 for 'i'. I thought I was first to post about it before finding this (we used to put the latest at top). Anyway, I think 'a' doesn't work, so 'i' looks good. I'd also prefer the "Long term goal" section to be below the latest move... Maybe not. I guess I can remember how we're doing it from now on.

daniel the smith Kirby, can you post a failure diagram for a?

JoazBanbeck Diagram 30.A.4 already looks like a refutation of 'a'.

daniel the smith Oh, right. The phrasing made me think that Kirby had a local reason it failed (i.e., he thinks i is ok).

Let's see, j is winning but Kirby and Dusk Eagle could tie it if they got together...


b: 1 (DE)

i: 1 (Kirby)

j: 1 (dts) + 1 (Joaz)

Dusk Eagle I think j is a pretty good choice, and while i isn't bad, like I said before I think it's in miai with the corner. I'll leave it up to Kirby. If you want to change your vote to b, you can do so, otherwise, you can go ahead and post j as our move.

Diagram 30.A.1 (double peep)  

daniel the smith Then a-d. OK, I guess if white peeps right away it's fine for us. (B7 at b is not good for us, pretty sure.) 4d's would never play this as white, I think.

Diagram 30.A.2 (white fixes)  

Diagram 30.A.3 (white ignores I)  

Diagram 30.A.4 (white ignores II)  

Diagram 30.A.5 (?)  

daniel the smith Ask yourself, if you were white and there were $1000 riding on the outcome of this game, what would you do?

Diagram 30.B.1  

JoazBanbeck If we play like this, the marked stone still can probably get out, W2 has made that group safer, B3 is dame points, and W4 just made some shape.

Dusk Eagle I really like this diagram for us. Both of his middle groups are still very weak, and his group on the right still has plenty of weakness, including a and b. You could say B3 is dame, or you could say B3 is pushing through a narrow gap. I'm still working on exactly what to do from here though. I was thinking B1 in Diagram 30.B.2, but I don't know how to respond to W2. I also am considering B1 as in Diagram 30.B.3, but I'm still trying to think about it from there.

Diagram 30.B.2  

Diagram 30.B.2  

Diagram 30.J.1  

JoazBanbeck OTOH, letting white have W2 is dame for him, and as DE(?) showed someplace earlier, 'x' may still be able to cut. So let him have it. We play B1, which we are probably going to have to do sometime anyway. Then we have both 'y' and 'z'.

Dusk Eagle The cut I showed earlier doesn't work with white+circle in place. However, there are still cuts involving peeping at w.

Diagram 30.J.2  

daniel the smith Does this go anywhere for white?

Diagram 30.J.3  

daniel the smith I think we can handle this?

Diagram 30.J.4  

daniel the smith If white can survive, then I think this might be good for white.

JoazBanbeck Then maybe a more aggressive B3? See next diagram.

Diagram 30.J.5  

Discussion for black 28


Kirby I propose 'a' as a first suggestion.

daniel the smith I think I like b best, but c also is intriguing. a feels slack to me, like running through dame.

Kirby I prefer 'b' to 'c', because 'c' seems a little bit like aji keshi.

Dusk Eagle {What I originally was going to write} I like a, because it threatens to seal white in on the left (with d or e) and our next move can be to cut at f.{/What I originally was going to write}

Actually, just after writing that, I've been thinking about e directly. This pincers his group and is definitely not dame. See diagram 28A and 28B.

One final idea I have is g, which is like a combination of a and e.

So yeah, any thoughts on e or g?

JoazBanbeck Play 'h' first, then when he defends, play 'g'.

Dusk Eagle That is interesting. But it might be a violation of the One Two Three principle. I don't know, but I'm thinking that by playing g directly, we preserve more aji. If he tries to cut through us, I'm pretty sure we can end up capturing his cutting stone. Since us capturing his cutting stone gets us a very strong and alive group in the center of the board, I think he has to avoid that at all costs, and so my thinking is we should preserve as much aji as possible here.

JoazBanbeck I was trying to use the aji at 'f'.'re probably right. Skip 'h'.

As I look at it more, 'a' begins to look better. It is a better way to threaten 'f'. ( See diagram 28C )

daniel the smith I could be persuaded to play e, it's what I wanted to play last time. But, if we play b first (which I still like best I think), do we miss our chance? What will white do if we play b?

Also I don't understand-- some of you had a death grip on that cutting stone last move, but now there seems to be a willingness to sacrifice it? What am I missing?

Dusk Eagle This is how I see it: Last move, if we had played around e, white could easily snatch up our cutting stone, and our stone around e would look very isolated and weak. But now, if we play as in Diagram 28A, then we look very strong on the bottom-left (while still having sente).

Edit: I'm actually once again quite interested in a after seeing Joaz's Diagram 28C.

JoazBanbeck Mayby time to vote?

daniel the smith I don't mind if a wins, but it'd be nice if someone else would at least comment on b. :)

Current votes:

a: 1 (Joaz) + 1 (kirby) + 1 (Dusk) = 3

b: 1 (dts) = 1

e: 0

Kirby Yes. I vote 1.0 for 'a', because I also like Joaz's 28C diagram.

Dusk Eagle I'm changing my vote to a, for the same reason as Kirby.

As for b, I have been against that move every move. I think (at least in prior moves) it was missing the focal point, and I don't think Magicwand was desperate to get it. Yes, he likes to cap, but generally that is when the stone(s) underneath can end up getting very weak, which often allows him to build even more influence while such a group struggles to live. Here, if he plays b, it doesn't fix any cutting points, and his two groups on the top-right can still be separated. However, now that we have cut him up at the expense of giving up some of the corner, I think b has become a better move, but I still think it's not the primary focus (if we can get Diagram 28C, then b becomes unnecessary).

If he fixes the cutting point at f, I think b becomes a better move for us. If he gets the 3-3 point in the corner, I think b also becomes better for us. But for this move, I think we keep his groups weakest by making our cutting stones as strong as possible.

daniel the smith Quick note: Makes sense. I think I would still play b if it were my own game. It feels like an "inducing move" (from the book "Attack and Defense"). But someone should go ahead and play a for us. I would but I'm pretty busy atm.

JoazBanbeck I have been advocating 'b' ( J15 ) on several of our previous moves. I still like it. I think that 'a' just happens to be a tad more important.

I'm done with my busy stuff. I'll post.

Diagram 28A  

Dusk Eagle We get quite big on the left side, and he still can be cut at a. There may be a better sequence (for instance, B7 might be better at b, or maybe there's a way to avoid sacrificing the black+circle stones if we don't want to do that).

Diagram 28B  

Dusk Eagle The cutting stone gets captured (One again, this might not be the best way to play, just my initial idea).

Diagram 28C  

Dusk Eagle This looks very nice to me now that I see it played out. White might not be able to play W26 because of it, but then we can play something like e in the main diagram.

JoazBanbeck in diagram 28D

Diagram 28D - alternate to 28C  

Discussion for black 26


topazg If he connects, I propose 'a'.

daniel the smith I think he will play b (or a). If he connects, I'm thinking c may be our best move. He will still have to worry about aji and he won't have much use for the wall he just got.

daniel the smith (later) He does connect. I don't want to play a, I think that will end up with us having a floating heavy group. In MW's own words, "one stone is aji." I say leave it and play c. Or possibly cut and take those two stones, giving us a really thick group to stare at those two white stones with. But c stands out to me as I think it's the point he'll want in a move or two when his wall gets a little thicker. It makes that whole side of the board uninteresting, so it's not that useful for white to have something thick facing it.

Kirby I agree with the "one stone is aji" idea here. I like 'c' alright. I also kind of feel like playing something that he will more likely respond to, such as 'd' next. After that, if he responds, we can try to grab 'e' after that. Maybe 'd' is too greedy, though...

topazg Why is it we played 'h' two moves ago again - what were we aiming for? As it stands, he can simply capture it in a ladder, and he's taken our corner away. I can't understand our game plan here. My goal of playing 'a' is it encourages White to respond on the left edge, giving is 'f', 'g' or 'h' to maintain an attack. If we don't think he'll treat it as sente, then 'f', 'g' or 'h' now seems prudent. Tenuki from all of this top area feels split-personality to me, based on our last few moves.

daniel the smith My original goal with h was (I think) to deal with the area without losing sente, leaving aji for MW to worry about if possible. I think that we accomplished that. White needs to lose sente yet again to completely control that stone. That said, a might be ok too, as long as we don't get attached to those stones-- but I think we will. Kirby's idea is interesting, but I'd play i if I was going to do that, I think.

topazg How do you feel about the result compared to diagrams 22A through to 22E?

Kirby I like daniel's 'i' better than 'd'. @topazg: I think we've lost some.

daniel the smith I could get behind i. I guess I also think that extending straight down back then would have been a little better.

Dusk Eagle I just can't vote for anything that doesn't involve saving the cutting stone. That was the whole purpose of cutting in the first place. Cutting stones are rather critical, as we all know, and I think we will be committing a *huge* mistake to not save it in some way. I vote a.

Kirby It seems to me that white can play in a simple way after 'a' - like at C13, for example. What do we do, then?

Dusk Eagle Jump to E11. Ultimately, I think Magicwand has to look out for the white+circle cutting stone, and then perhaps we can get a splitting attack on the top.

Kirby That might be OK. I am kind of confused about the best play, to be honest.

Dusk Eagle I feel the same way. I don't like a, but I dislike leaving it even more. I don't know what's best.

topazg After 'a', I vote for the splitting attack straight away, either with 'f' or the point below it.

JoazBanbeck Locally, 'a' feels right. With a whole-board view, 'f' feels right.

Does anybody have a distinct game plan here, or are we playing a drunkard's walk? If you have one, please propose it.

Kirby I vote 1.0 for drunkard's walk... Just kidding. I would be OK with 'i' followed by 'e' if he responds, as mentioned above. I'm also OK with black 'a', white 'j', black 'k', too.

daniel the smith You guys have convinced me that a is not as bad as I thought it was. But now I just feel ambivalent towards everything. I guess if I had to vote now, it'd be .6 i, .4 a. I added some possible plans below. I still think a is going to give us a group we'll have to care for throughout the rest of the game, which I think is exactly what MW wants.

Kirby I kind of prefer 'i', too. The argument for playing at 'a' seems to be that, if we don't play 'a', our cut from before is a waste. Well, I don't think that this is the case if the cut has made 'i' something that Magicwand will respond to. It will have served the purpose of allowing for us to get 'i' in, and then move on to another part of the board afterward. We get to hit the board very quickly, and I think the cut we made before helps toward that, assuming that Magicwand responds to 'i'. If Magicwand does not respond to 'i', then we can pull out at 'a' at that time, and 'i' will be helpful. From this perspective, I'd like to vote 0.8 for 'i' and 0.2 for 'a'.

daniel the smith I hope that "if we don't play 'a', our cut from before is a waste" is not the argument people are intending to make for playing at a, because it's a bad argument (sunk costs fallacy). We can't make a bad move (if indeed it was) into a good one by persisting in the same error... I think the argument people are actually making is, "it's a good time to split white and fight hard". I just don't think that's what the position calls for; I think if we fight here we'll have a local disadvantage, or an even fight-- certainly we have no local advantage here.

When I wanted the cut originally, it was because I thought MW would have to spend a lot of moves controlling the cutting stone, not because I wanted to split him with a heavy group. If we get half the corner, i, and sente (which we may or may not use as in 26.I below) out of the deal I'll consider that cut to have been pretty successful. My overall plan is to maintain sente as much as possible and leave a lot of unpleasant aji for white (and very little for us). I especially do not want to make white thick if I can possibly help it. I don't want to start a running battle or another sort of fight until it's clear that we have more/better/thicker stuff to run to than white does.

Now one could argue that the five of us together should be able to outread MW in a fight, therefore cutting and fighting is good, all other things being equal. But I personally don't feel the need to test this when I don't think fighting here is necessary at all.

...hmm, I think I convinced myself while writing that. .9 i, .1 a. I'd also be in favor of anything that accomplishes the same thing; maybe one point south of i is slightly better (play away from thickness)?

daniel the smith (after topazg's comments on the diagrams) Honestly not sure if I prefer Diagram 26.A.3.B or Diagram 26.I-- .5 a, .5 i. Let's take a vote, I think we've discussed enough.

Dusk Eagle I'm still going to vote for a, even though I now think i is better than I originally thought.

topazg I'm going to have to sit out of this game for a while. A few things have come up in the last few weeks that have lost my motivation for Go. I think my ability to help constructively is proportional to the amount of energy I invest, and right now that's "not much". Feel free to vote without me.

daniel the smith I think it'd be fairest to play a. With Joaz and topazg not voting for a few days, i might be able to win, but if they voted I think it's clear that a would win. I'm ok with either one at this point.

JoazBanbeck Found a few secs from govt crap; I like 'a'. Bye.

Kirby I'm alright with 'a'.

Diagram 26.A.1  

daniel the smith I thought of this while making the below diagram. Make white heavy and split at the last possible moment?

topazg I think White will ignore 3 and save his two stones.

daniel the smith And let us capture? I'd be pretty happy about that, I think. Thrilled, actually!

Diagram 26.A.2  

daniel the smith This is my first idea if we play a.

topazg I like this.

Diagram 26.A.3  

daniel the smith And what if white does this?

topazgI added my choice for '3'.

daniel the smith What if play goes like Diagram 26.A.3.B?

Diagram 26.A.3.A  

daniel the smith Hmm... ok for us, I think. Seems tricky but the five of us should be able to avoid the traps. White has clear profit and we have a major attack, I think.

Diagram 26.A.3.B  

daniel the smith This looks very similar to Diagram 26.I to me, except white has the side and we have more in the middle. It's pretty clear what we each got, but I'm not sure if it's good or not.

Diagram 26.I  

daniel the smith If we play i, this seems like a reasonable followup. I like this because nothing of ours is remotely in danger, but we have a thick group staring at those two white stones. And white's other group still has aji.

topazg I think this is yucky :P We are throwing huge investment into capturing the 2 marked stones, and White can skip out into the middle. We've gained less points from the capture than we lost in the corner by cutting at 'h'. Sunk fallacies aside, I think the cut is overplay, but not a complete mistake, and we should try to make it good with consistent followups. We can't keep changing plans. We've cut, so we want to make his groups weak - let's split him and make him run a bit.

Dusk Eagle The plus side of this diagram is that we can attack white's two stones on top (and perhaps his one stone on the right as well). However, doesn't B1 feel too close to thickness?

daniel the smith @topaz, I'm not attached to 3 and 5. If W2, B3 at x is likely to be sente, and then we could e or something. Does that look any better? @DE, I kinda agree, would one space lower be better?

Dusk Eagle It looks better to me anyway.

GangMalkovich1/archive2 last edited by on May 5, 2011 - 21:40
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