Forum for Xuanxuan Qijing Problem 120

Phrasing? [#971]

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KarlKnechtel: Phrasing? (2007-05-07 22:55) [#3333]

I don't understand the phrasing of the problem. Is the objective to prove that Black cannot succeed even with the move?

Bill: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 01:36) [#3335]

I ran across it online, where the given solution was the double snapback. I suppose that there was a mistake in the ancient text. But there are better tsumego solvers here than I, so I put in the question mark.

Unkx80: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 11:34) [#3336]

See also RTG Problem 29.

Bill: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 14:10) [#3337]

Is that the real problem, and not the one I found on the web?

HermanHiddema: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 15:10) [#3338]

It might very well be, yes. I considered the solution given for RTG Problem 29 when trying to solve this one, but found that it doesn't work. B9 from that solution is very nice and it feels wrong that it doesn't work in this case.

Unkx80: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 16:47) [#3341]

I recall that my source is a Chinese "beginner level" problem book. As the book is at home, I need to go back and check where it took the problem from. Unfortunately, I don't own a copy of the Xuanxuan Qijing.

May I ask, where is your web source? I came across tasuki's transcription of the Xuanxuan Qijing problems on the web and cannot find your problem 120.

Bill: Re: Phrasing? (2007-05-08 21:15) [#3343]

I am replying to myself, because several people seem to agree that what I found on the web was not the real problem. Here is the URL:


Thanks, guys. I suppose that we should just delete this page.

reply ((no subject)) (2007-05-08 15:55) [#3340]

Bob McGuigan: I looked for this problem in my copy of the Hashimoto edition of Gen Gen Gokyo and didn't find it. The problems aren't numbered so I may have overlooked it when scanning the book, or it could be one of the ones omitted from this edition.

reply Four old men (2007-05-09 00:16) [#3344]

John F. Bill happens to have picked a problem with a problem. This appears in slightly different forms in the various recensions. This is the Go Seigen version. The original has only four stones in the corner, and there is more than one way these four stones appear. The solutions therefore vary considerably. However, the "phrasing" question is redundant if you look at the original, because the name of the problem tells you the point: The Four White-haired Old Men Return to the Mountain. This tells you White saves his stones, and the reference to the four old extra-clever men in question tells you it's a hard problem. The names add something more often than not. It's not unknown in the old books to have problems with what we might regard as flaws, but it's best to regard these books as collections of interesting tesujis and positions, even if most happen to be life & death.

Bill, Bob and I are three of these wise old(er) men, of course. Who's the fourth?

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