Forum for Ladder Breaker
definition of ladder breaker/ "types of LB" section [#8601]
Two pretty basic things in this page seem to me to be wrong.
A) In its current state, this page seems to give a wrong definition. A ladder-breaker breaks a ladder; it prevents it from working. It does not enable a ladder, or set up a ladder.
B) The "types of ladder breaker" section: I can't see how this analysis can be useful to players. I would suggest moving it to a subpage, or deleting it.
It would be good to have some other people's thoughts on these points.
Thanks
Edit: after a closer look at the page, and the discussion already there, I now think that in the header/definition section this page should mention that the term is sometimes used to set up or enable a ladder, but that this usage is not a common one.
Edit#2: as far as I can see, the Chinese term 引征 only refers to "ladder breakers"; it doesn't refer to "ladder makers".
![[ext]](images/extlink.gif)
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%BC%95%E5%BE%81/247625
Agree that the "types of ladder breaker" section is not very useful, and does not AFAIK describe terminology that is widely used.
It might be useful to show that some ladder breakers can be played in sente before the ladder starts, e.g:
![[Diagram]](diagrams/38/62888fb7146cf9ca4fd8e443d9b85ffd.png)
On white's turn, white can play a to prevent the ladder at b, then play tenuki. This move must be played immediately, it cannot be played after black starts the ladder at b.
A white move at c on the other hand, is also a ladder breaker, but since it is gote there is no advantage to playing it early.
I have to agree with Malcolm, the piece about the types of ladder breakers seems utterly useless to me.
Further to the discussion (currently) in the article, I was ruminating on the problems of this terminology a little while back, and I have come up with a few ideas for clear terms for a variety of situations, namely the effect of a stone on a potential ladder.
For what it is worth, these are my suggestions:
- It interferes in some way with the standard ladder sequence: a ladder changer
- It means that the sequence comes to an end: a ladder stopper (which some people mean by ladder breaker)
- It allows the defender to escape: a ladder breaker or, if that feels too ambiguous, perhaps opener (to contrast with closer)
- It allows the attacker to capture: a laddder closer
- It allows the ladder to continue along a different path: a ladder bender
- It allows the ladder to continue in a different direction: a ladder turner
- It allows the ladder to continue along a different parallel path: a ladder shifter
- It means that the sequence comes to an end: a ladder stopper (which some people mean by ladder breaker)
These mostly work quite well in the form “the ladder is changed” / “stopped” / “closed” / “broken” ¿or “opened”? / “bent” / “turned” / “shifted”, on their own in combination with phrases like “by the stone at A13” / “by 
” – but of course these only help if enough other people feel they are worth adopting.
In English, maker is an antonym of breaker, besides rhyming. :)
The reason I am lukewarm about “maker” although it forms such a convincing pair with “breaker” is that I feel that the ladder is made by the initial J-shaped atari, and the attacking stone in the path does not make the ladder but rather stops it being broken: it more like a reinforcement. But these are considerations I would readily set aside if the term were generally adopted.
Bill: As I use the term, ladder maker is more general than a play that affects a ladder that is already in existence. It can be a move that sets up a ladder. By the same token, a ladder breaker can break a potential ladder.
In principle I don't mind at all if SL invents its own terminology. I think "micro Chinese" was first published here, and was picked up elsewhere. But I think we need to use new words, not add to the confusion by trying to enforce a strict definition of "ladder breaker" if it's already being used ambiguously in the literature. I think PJTraill's suggestions are nice.
It would be nice for John Fairbairn to chime in on this question.
However, I suggest that we follow the usual method of dictionaries and include both definitions, like so.
Ladder breaker
1) any stone that lies in the path of a ladder or potential ladder;
2) any stone that lies in the path of a ladder or potential ladder, or adjacent to it, that renders the ladder ineffective in capturing the stone or stones caught in the ladder.
I absolutely agree that it is important to document existing usage clearly up front, whatever terminology one adopts oneself. Anything else is unfairly confusing to readers.
I agree with the idea of giving two definitions.
However, in the suggestion above, definition #2 is much more commonly used, so it should go first. It should also be mentioned that the other definition is not commonly used. So I would like something like this:
Ladder breaker
1) any stone that lies in the path of a ladder or potential ladder, or adjacent to it, that renders the ladder ineffective in capturing the stone or stones caught in the ladder;
2) any stone that lies in the path of a ladder or potential ladder.
The second definition is rarely used.
Maybe a footnote could be added to the last sentence, listing the few authors/works that use this definition.
![[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]](images/stone-hello.png "Sensei's Library")