Forum for Ishida's Joseki Dictionary
copy from pre forum era [#333]
User comments
Naustin--I just wanted to make a quick note having just recently looked at the first two volumes of this work again. Hopefuly this is the right place to do so.
I'm not sure if stronger players find this work useful but as about a 10k I found it not very helpful. Unfortunately this seems to be true of most joseki material I have come across.
The book claims to function as a basic course in joseki as well as a handbook or dictionary. I didn't have much luck trying to use it in this manner. At least for me the sequences don't seem like things I would be likely to play and it was impossible for me to discern which examples were ones I had something to gain by studying. I think this probably has more to do with my playing level than the book but it didn't really work for me.
Malweth: I just ordered this book, and I'll let you know what my (7-5 kyu) take on it is after I've looked it through, but... 10-kyu does seem a bit early for an in-depth study of Joseki. Joseki requires stronger reading skills (which at 10-kyu you're probably pretty much just starting to learn to read). Again, I haven't reviewed this book, but I believe the usefulness is in reviewing the types and meanings of moves (joseki vital points if you will) more than memorizing joseki patterns.
My teacher seemed pleased when I said that I'd ordered this set (and it isn't a cheap set of books at about $75 incl S/H) so I have some high hopes for it!
Mef: From what bit of joseki I've looked at, I think the real problem for us weaker players isn't so much reading ability as it is positional analysis (i.e. Do you know why this is an equal result?). Either way though, good luck with your studies!
Malweth: Well, I've gone through most of the first book (3-4 point) and I learned a lot. I played out each position once on a real goban, read the text, and continued to the next diagram (slow, but I never looked at any position more than once). This is a big help in games (5-8 kyu) because it gives you some ideas of normal moves. This is also good because you can see how different normal moves react in different positions.
For example:
![[Diagram]](diagrams/33/42c2a87383de70172364612e65c2d0d5.png)
![[Diagram]](diagrams/14/73435d32d6a49c237f46abcc80c64bfc.png)
![[Diagram]](diagrams/35/5240d7b599c1fdc76e8404e44a347d2e.png)
![[Diagram]](diagrams/39/4676330e5d914c2bbaea3306177f1a09.png)
are very similar joseki. They act in slightly different ways, but knowing the reasons of how they work helps a lot -- even when moving to 4-4 (at least for some joseki, especially pincers).
My advice (for 5-8 kyu) is to read through the book once, playing out each (or at least the complex) diagram on the goban. Then continue studying go as you did before you read this book.
George Caplan Malweth's advice seems pretty wise. Of course, I feel compelled to repeat the mantra that studying tsumego is more important than joseki at almost any level. That being said, Malweth's approach to joseki is a good one - note he said nothing about trying to memorize the sequences. Taking in Ishida's comments, and seeing the flow of the moves is helpful. The key is to try to understand the reasons behind each move - avoiding sealing in, liberty count, base formation - as you come to truly understand these reasons - you will suddenly know the joseki, not because you memorized it, but because you understand it. And an understanding of these rationale will help you with the next step - playing the right choices for the board position. It sounds so easy....
zinger: True, indeed. But it's not just about joseki. Consider how many of those diagrams are tsumego problems! And when people ask me what is the best tesuji book I know of, I invariably say Ishida. So I say they are great books to study - but not because of joseki.
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