Forum for Miai

Paths: <= Endgame =>   ·   <= Good Play =>

Equivalence in value? [#2982]

202.156.180.188: Equivalence in value? (2014-02-27 15:20) [#9968]

Under the "equivalence" section, it says:

Note that equivalence is an important aspect of miai. In miai positions, both the points are about the same in value, but they may not be exactly the same. (bold emphasis mine)

I think this statement only holds true in certain contexts, such as when discussing endgame positions. However, this is not always true in other contexts, such as life and death, when miai appears to be used for points with quite different values.

The points a and b are miai for life.

So I think the "definition" section makes better sense to me: the player can always get one of the two options.

Am I mistaken?

--unkx80

194.78.35.195: ((no subject)) (2014-02-27 16:35) [#9969]

I agree with you. I think that "equivalence" is a very good translation for our Western conceptualized minds. When it's about L&D, two moves are equivalent. When the context shifts to endgame points, they are not equivalent anymore. We often see then that one of the two is played as a sente move. See the Lee Sedol Gu Li Jubango Game 1 move 207. Between these stages such moves are held in equivalence, for reasons of aji and ko. (as you know of course)

JF (I think) urged us to think more dynamically about this concept, as in making miai. Miai should not be understood as a state but as an action. I'm not sure if that's what he said, because I do understand miai as a state after the action has been completed.

Unkx80: ((no subject)) (2014-02-27 18:38) [#9970]

Upon rereading, I realized that I have no problem with the word "equivalence" alone, if it is meant that the two options result in the same objective or outcome being achieved. My problem was the combination of "equivalence" and "value", because it leads me to think in a more granular manner, as in living with 8 points versus living with 10 points. Unless "value" is taken a more coarse grained level, i.e., living without regards to points. But having to make such an interpretation makes the word "value" somewhat vague. Thus I edited the "equivalence" section accordingly.

As for miai, I also see it as a state that can be reached after an action is performed - this action is "making miai". Additionally, the two options are actions that leads to different states but with the same outcome. However, I think that the concept of miai can be taken to a higher level of thinking, as mentioned on the page miai in problem solving. Identification of miai positions and figuring how such positions can be reached can help in more organized thinking and probably prune away parts of the search tree. Possibly something similar along the lines of, I made \$21 from A and \$30 from B, and spent \$10 on C and \$40 on D, so the incomes and expenses of roughly \$50 can roughly cancel each other out.

X
Slarty: Re: ((no subject)) (2014-02-27 21:05) [#9971]

In the example of "miai for life," life is worth around 30 points or clearly the difference between an even or lost game. While coarse, this has an appreciable meaning and is the most expedient correct form of reasoning in all but the finest contexts. (If you need to count within 2 points solving the status of the tsumego is a long-gone concern)