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velther: It seems people consider the whole board joseki to be equivalent to my global joseki page, which was subsequently merged with this page, thereby removing my links to the global josekis I was documenting.
If this is the majority sentiment, then I wish to replace the name of "whole board joseki" with "global joseki" to make it a more accurate representation of the information documented within. Furthermore, I wish to re-instate the links that I created in the global joseki page, and replace the example on the main page with the example I had previously, which I believe is a more accurate and modern representation of global josekis than the one currently shown. I hope to resolve this issue and create a clear and concise page upon which I will further document modern global josekis that I have been studying.
Hi
I didn't realize this project was still that alive when merging. If you feel strongly about the naming and can share some modern professional thinking about the opening, by all means.
I don't think there is much of a majority here. I merged your pages into what I recorded from a Korean 6d, who talked about "whole board joseki" or rather "standard opening".
I suggest we keep one name for it and I like "whole board joseki" best, but "global joseki" is absolutely fine too. I also think the examples we both provided are useful ones.
I apologize for any inconvenience, as I was just trying to remove redundancy.
Go ahead and I'll help out where I can!
Dieter
Yes, keep going, changing etc., in any case if someone changes sth. think about it, change parts that don't suit you again, but keep those you like etc. if there is a serious disagreement there is still plenty of time to start a discussion. That's the wiki way it is meant to be.
You can even consider turning it to a path documenting many global / whole board joseki if it gets too long. No opinion on the name, the second one can be turned to an alias. I am probably responsible for the merge template (don't remember) and believe the pages were meant to cover the same topic and merging was a good idea in general. Put it on PageNameChangeRequests for name change - it will then likely be Dieter or myself who change it, but I couldn't miss the opportunity to point to this page. ;)
The line between "whole board joseki" and "fuseki" is pretty thin. Most references to joseki on SL refer to corner joseki. There could be more work in clarifying this.
I have never heard the term "global joseki" before, even though the name is more concise. I have also never heard "whole board joseki" in a Chinese context - it is lumped together with "fuseki".
Dieter: I think the main difference is that the study of the opening has become so specialized that it has narrowed down the sequence to one main line that is active on the whole board. Before, the opening had more scope for different options and branched much sooner.
I agree though that this is rather an evolution of the opening as a whole than an evolution of joseki. Stated otherwise, it is rather like the whole board has become joseki, than the joseki becoming whole board. Therefore I may prefer standard opening as a term, now that I think of it again. Whole board joseki and global joseki are fancier names, but they may be confusing.
On a higher level, the choice is one between two schools of thought:
this is what Charles has referred to as the articulation problem, which was a fine summary of heated language debates at the time.
I like local vs. global joseki pair of terms. "Whole board" always sounds like context (and hints to appropriate choice) for me, global joseki are standard openings without context, the choice has already been made here.
I didn't feel there was a strong difference between "global" or "whole board" joseki, as "standard opening" would be my preferred name. I also don't see what the "context" would be for a standard opening. The whole board is involved, so that's the context. Or would you refer to historical context?
i mean whole board as in whole board thinking, which refers to me to the context to be considered when you have a choice in a local area. say whole board as the "outside" of the local area, while global joseki doesn't give you a choice at all, but is global. also global / local is a nice pair of terms. and either way someone else preferred it as well, so i snapped and renamed it. no strong feelings involved.
i believe that studying local joseki needs modular thinking as you have to think about joseki choice and the whole board (as context) all the time. while the global joseki even if they arise from very hard thinking by professionals forego this aspect in amateur practice. if you learn a standard opening ironically you don't contemplate as much about choice and the whole board as you do when you rote learn josekis and have to worry how to apply them.
If you rote learn the standard opening, then yes, the problem becomes bigger. Studying them is different: you understand the relationships between all areas. The study of a standard opening for me is more interesting than one of joseki, because you meet the whole board thinking of a pro, whereas with joseki, you meet his technique and the potential for his global positional judgment.
I know I am pretty lonely with my opinion on this. But when you look at local joseki you have to think about how to apply them, when are they suitable when not. As opposed to that most amateurs who are in global joseki mode play like a professional until move 20 or even 30 and then totally unrelated stuff. When you learn and study local joseki you will have trouble making them work, making mistakes early on etc. etc. but at least you practice direction of play, whole board thinking every time you play (if you study more than a single joseki, that is). When joseki are like bricks, standard openings are like prefabricated houses. Even when they are beautifully designed you don't learn anything about bricklaying or architecture or statics from using them. And it totally puzzles me, why so many people (around me) that were lambasting the perils of rote learning local joseki (which I am big fan of, although not very good at it) are now big into playing prefabricated global joseki, which are not even modular. I mean, if you study joseki of course you are looking into games, when this one is played and when another one, if this isn't whole board thinking what else is?
See, I know people who play this? opening literally every time they get the chance to, but some of them still are totally surprised every time they see the probe described on the linked page.
I don't know which people you are referring to, so I will not speak for them. Myself I'm not big into prefab standard openings, but I'll admit I have published a couple of them, as a result of learning from Minue. I did not rote memorize them though: the lesson was about explaining the reason for each move, the variations and at which point the research was still open.
I can see how such publications can lead people astray in rote learning standard openings, so maybe it's a case of a publication that only benefits the writer, since he has put all energy into the thought process.
Essentially I think we're saying the same thing: study (global or local) joseki and do not merely rote memorize the result. The difference is that I seem to enjoy studying house building more, while you prefer insight in room building, to assemble your house yourself. Such personal preferences are natural and may vary over time too.