Forum for Liberty

Should the previous structure (or even previous page!) be kept? [#2264]

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reply Should the previous structure (or even previous page!) be kept? (2010-04-17 03:21) [#7650]


1) The new version seems very confusing.

The first sentence of the new version states:

"A Liberty is in essence a ny given group's directly adjacent empty spaces."

This statement is not correct!

The previous version stated correctly:

"Liberty has two different, but related, meanings in English Go terminology.

  • The first sense of liberty is an empty point adjacent to a single stone or chain of stones. In a legal position each chain has at least one liberty.

This is the basic meaning. Such a liberty is called a dame in Japanese. The liberty - introductory page explains some of the more basic implications in fighting.

   * The second sense of liberty, important for tactics, is a play required to capture a single stone or chain of stones. This is the sense you require if you want to say that the number of liberties measures time to capture a group. It is discussed in liberty (tactical sense)."

In the new version this statement has been re-written, and (in my opinion) not improved. Sadly, it is now buried in the middle of the page.

2) The new version contains many typing, spelling, and grammatical errors -- active proof-reading is needed. I am not attempting to fix them since I prefer the previous version. :-(

xela: Re: Should the previous structure (or even previous page!) be kept? (2010-04-17 04:06) [#7652]

It seems that Stormswindspaths intends to come back and do some more work on this. So maybe it's worth waiting a day or two to see how it develops.

Personally I agree that the new version in its current state is confusing. But I don't think the old version was much better. The "second sense" as described in that version isn't well explained. A liberty is not actually a move. And if "a play" (one move) will suffice to capture some stones, then the second sense is exactly the same as the first. So it looks redundant, unless you follow the link and find out what is actually intended (i.e. in the context of stones with several liberties). And even then, it might be that approach moves or secondary liberty is a better way of describing what's going on. (Possibly a few pages need to be merged at some stage). Re: Should the previous structure (or even previous page!) be kept? (2010-04-17 18:50) [#7655]

One sense of liberty is a move. It is quite easy to show an example where the two senses of liberty differ. Perhaps it would help the page to show it on this page. :)

reply ((no subject)) (2010-04-17 18:46) [#7654]

IMO, the revision is horrible. It presents personal views as fact, is misleading and confusing. The previous version is correct. There are two different meanings, and they are concisely defined. Then links are given to the different meanings. That is proper use of hypertext. The linked pages give more detailed explanations. Trying to do too much on this page has led to confusion and controversy in the past. Better to keep this page simple, clear, and accurate. :)

Unkx80: ((no subject)) (2010-04-17 19:00) [#7656]

I looked at these edits, and my reaction is, WTF...

The lead presents only one of the two senses of liberty, and then what follows is a huge and confusing verbal diarrhoea.

If this is my personal wiki, then I would revert it straightaway. But no, I will wait a bit first.

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