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Old Kifu with Kanji [#1831]

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MMan: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-15 04:34) [#6054]

Years ago, I googled up an old kifu, probably early 1900s, with all the numbers on the stones in kanji numerals.

However, this didn't use the full traditional Japanese way of showing numerals, but rather a positional system: move 41 would have a kanji 4 stacked over a kanji 1. The diagram I found ended with move 100, represented by a plain square - obviously, without a zero, something had to be done differently once the numbers hit the hundreds.

I've tried to find more old kifu online without success. I'd like to know the full system - I asked on a USENET newsgroup and somebody there thought (but wasn't sure) that a triagle was used for the 200s. Nobody knew about the 300s (maybe a circle?).

Recently, reading the Hikaru No Go manga, I saw some of these in "Game 129" in which Hikaru finds some old kifu in the archives of the Japan Go Association. The pictures weren't entirely clear but it did indeed look like there were triangles.

So, does anybody know the full system? What is used for 200, 300, even 400 or the unlikely 500? Any other wrinkles in the system?

Or can anyone find any of these old kifu on the internet? You'd think there'd be some old out-of-copyright books scanned in somewhere, but I can't find them.

Phelan: Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-15 13:02) [#6060]

I don't know much about the topic, but I'd try to ask about this on GoDiscussions as well. There are a few japanese language fans/experts there.

MMan: Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-16 00:42) [#6064]

OK, thanks!

Did it. I even did an attachment of the kifu I found, which I couldn't see how to attach here.

Phelan: Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-16 04:55) [#6065]

Link to the thread, for any deshi who wants to see it: [ext]

There's no way to upload images to senseis, you have to upload it somewhere on the web, and then add a hotlink here. See HowToAddImages.

Hope you get some good responses. :) Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-18 00:18) [#6074]

Unfortunately, that discussion has dissolved into a pissing match over using the correct language/terminology in asking the question before an answer will be given.

Phelan: Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-18 06:26) [#6075]

Sadly, most forums do. I honestly thought one of the members there could/would help.

tchan001: Re: Old Kifu with Kanji (2009-05-18 18:18) [#6076]

How do old non-arabic notations on ancient game records record moves numbered above 100, above 200 and above 300 if the game records were only recorded on one diagram rather than over multiple diagrams?

As explained by John Fairbairn:

The practice is different in Japanese and Chinese. The Japanese developed a special system as part of a fairly extensive range of publishing experiments, which obviously saw some variation. But what was eventually settled on was a system where:

  • 1. The ten character was omitted above 10 (i,e. 35 was written 三五 3-5 instead of 三十五 3-10-5 in characters)
  • 2. An empty square was used for 100
  • 3. An empty triangle was used for 200
  • 4. An empty circle was used for 300
  • 5. A circle with a dot inside was used for 400.

tchan001: For information on the chinese go game recording methods, check [ext]

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