Forum for Moyo Go Studio
Lifting the ban [#1524]
I think it is time to lift the ban.
The MoyoGo page and its forum are unlocked and texts mentioning the program are no longer blocked.
Please note: wiki etiquette remains in vigor. If you have positive or negative remarks about the software stay true to the facts.
Have you seen the Internet site fro MOYOGO? I do not think that anyone who writes like this deserves to be mentioned in SL. We are a strong community who have only the best intentions for each other. Unfortunately that is not the case with Mr. De Groot. [[edited by Arno: removed sentence]] Anyone is entitiled to their own beliefs. But for SL to provide a link to that site is a disgrace. Please reinstate the ban.
Lance Martin
I have a problem with moral fascism.
[[edited by Arno: removed sentence]]
So please keep ideology out of this site there are other places to discuss such issues
Rainer Stowasser
Well given that Moyo Go Studio has been marketed as Holocaust Denialware the conclusion is understandable. However SL cannot really judge the morality of all and sundry.
Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria, where I reside. Out of precaution as operator of SL (and because I don't want to be associated with that kind of ideology in any way) I have removed the link to MoyoGo's homepage.
In case you wonder, read here: ![[ext]](images/extlink.gif)
http://www.godiscussions.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11021
EDIT: The MoyoGo page was probably changed later as one prominent holocaust denier left gaol in Germany on March 1 after serving five years.
Notice that the thread was locked about one hour and a half after its creation...
On a side note... that link is broken as of right now-- for some reason, GoDiscussions.com keeps redirecting to another site for me.
It's an intermittent problem, see this thread.
[edited by xela: comments relating to deleted sentences are no longer relevant]
Frank de Groot here -
Since I jestingly said that MGS was "Holocaust denialware", some places they take this much too seriously :-)
Some time ago, I was appalled when I read that a 80-year old man was convicted of 7 jears in jail for publicly stating that he did not believe the historical record pertaining the Holocaust.
It upset me so much that I announced that MGS would donate the proceeds to "political prisoners", to attract attention to the fact that in some countries in Europe, people can be imprisoned for years, merely for voicing opinions. His wife and attorney is in jail too, for the same reason.
It seems that those countries that imprison old people for not believing what those countries write in their history books, have not learnt much from their own recent history.
When the inevitable indigenous fallout ensued, I jokingly said: "MGS is holocaustdenialware", as people were calling ME a "holocaust denier", merely for supporting the right of free speech in Europe!
Of course, people with a personal grudge immediately pounced upon the golden opportunity and blogged on what an evil Nazi I am :-)
Just to clarify, folks. Enjoy your free software. Only not further developed because of sheeple like yourself.
I myself find Holocaust denying unsavoury but decided to ask Amnesty International as a more knowledgable organisation for their opinion.
What here follows is their response:
Dear Willemien,
Thank you very much for your email.
Amnesty International's position on holocaust denial is based on international human rights standards. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) states, in Article 19, that everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression, but that certain restrictions may be placed on that right if they are necessary for the respect of the rights of others; Article 20 states that any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.
In line with this and other international human rights standards, AI works for the right to free expression and adopts as prisoners of conscience people who are imprisoned for exercising their right to freedom of expression, however it will not adopt as prisoners of conscience people who are imprisoned for using hate speech to deliberately or recklessly incite acts of violence, discrimination, or hostility against another group.
The language used to advocate hatred is not always explicit or direct. Sometimes it uses euphemisms which, over the years, become well-known, such as denying the occurrence of the Holocaust and thereby alleging that the extensive documentation of the Holocaust is fraudulent and that its victims are lying. Since Jews, Roma, gay persons, and disabled persons were the principal victims of the Holocaust and are still subject to discrimination, this can constitute advocacy of hatred and an incitement to discrimination and hostility against those groups.
In line with its normal practice, when applying the policy to individual cases, AI considers each case on its own merit. In cases where it determines that an individual who has been imprisoned for denying the Holocaust has, in effect, advocated hatred as described above, AI would not adopt them as prisoners of conscience.
I hope that this explains our position.
Kind regards,
Hm.. Weasel words by AI. Most "deniers" never advocated violence, and I don't think AI ever tried to help them. In fact I do not know of any imprisoned "denier" who ever advocated violence against Jews, Roma etc.
So the inprisonment of "thought criminals" is justified by equating "denial" with "advocating violence". That really doesn't stick, so they invented the victimless crime of "hate speech", being speech that some people find offensive because it does not compute with their own opinions, not because any hate is involved.
Merely publishing a scientific study about the lack of Prussian Blue in the "gas chambers" such as Germar Rudolf has done, landed him in jail. No hate speech involved, just a "thought crime".
I find it appalling that Amnesty International claims to help such political prisoners, imprisoned for their well-argued opinion, but in fact because Amnesty finds it a risk to their bottom line or because they have a different opinion than the "thought criminals", they don't touch these cases with a ten foot pole.
Just to make myself clear: I agree that advocating violence against any innocent group should be severely punishable. We can see what happened in Rwanda what happens when such isn't punished.
Let's assume that some "deniers" truly believe their "denials". Should they be sentenced to 7 years in jail for that? Let's assume they are deliberately lying and know that the Holocaust happened. Should they spend 7 years in jail for denying something that happened before they were born, even when they do not advocate violence in any way, shape or form? 7 years for genuine or malicious "denial" seems harsh. Murderers get away with less sometimes.
Weasel words by AI? No. Read it again. AI quoted the ICCPR saying "discrimination, hostility or violence", referred to "violence, discrimination, or hostility" on general principles, and, with regard to Holocaust deniers in particular, "discrimination and hostility". Note the omission of "violence" from that last one. And yet 213.21.71.116 accuses AI of accusing Holocaust deniers of "advocating violence". No. AI is not the one making false accusations here. There are many non-violent forms of discrimination and hostility, and AI's argument that Holocaust denial incites such is not refuted by 213.21.71.116's strawman argument.
It looks like FDG is busy calling up flame wars, on subjects that are not only not related to Go, but of sensitive nature too.
And in an anonymous way.
But that is my assumption - 213.21.71.116 seems to originate from Sweden. It could be someone else posting on his behalf to incriminate him.
But if FDG wants to avoid such issues, seen the fact that his page ban has been lifted, one would expect him to behave, such as log in to sign his contributions. If he doesn't, either someone is impersonating him (therefore we should protect this page), or he is behaving badly towards SL (and he should be banned).
-alex-
Frank here - the previous poster with IP address 213.21.71.116 is not me.
Anyone can be Frank. The real Frank should understand that it was a gift for him to have the ban lifted, so he shouldn't post anonymously on SL. FDG should know that registering here is the only way to get real credits. But maybe he doesn't, and in that case is feeding the uncertainty in this community. Either he is flaming, or someone else is trying to impersonate him.
My idea? Because these posts are made anonymously, and most probably not by FDG, an anonymous IP might be trying to deface the page, and therefore it might need to be blocked once more.
how can we now be sure who is Frank? are you at ip address 213.21.71.116 or 134.47.109.183
Can you log in and tell which post is yours. Or shall we just remove them both
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