# Seven points? [#1030]

erislover: Seven points? (2007-06-26 03:13) [#3488]

In the page, the following diagram is said to be 7.00 points miai.

Second line hane with sente follow-up for both sides

By my calculations, this is 5 points miai, not 7. It is just a second-line hane-connect gote with a sente follower, already listed on this page. Where is the value of 7 coming from?

X
Bill: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-26 17:20) [#3489]
Even steven

Well, we start from a symmetrical position, so we can think of this as representing the value of the original position.

Second line hane with sente follow-up for both sides

By comparison, Black has gained 1 point at , and White has lost 6 points.

But the descent is probably better, anyway. See revision of page.

erislover: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 01:10) [#3490]
Seven points?

As the original position is symmetrical, and the hane is gote (hence the tally will be 2), then the miai value is just the count at the end of the sequence. Here the count is B+5. Of course, the other way it will be W+5, with a tally of 2, hence, 5 points miai.

This must be wrong, as I surely believe you over me here, especially since the incursion is clearly deeper than the simpler case, but what is the problem with the calculation? To practice miai counting I've been evaluating simpler positions and my calculations have agreed with everything here so far.

Also, here's a somewhat normal position in a game:

Value?

I calculate this to be 9 points miai, which seems dreadfully wrong. Somehow my method seems to only coincidentally work for simple positions but fails for others. Any help is appreciated.

Bill: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 04:44) [#3491]

erislover wrote:

Seven points?

You are forgetting the two points opposite and .

As for the second position, how do you find the value?

erislover: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 04:59) [#3493]

"You are forgetting the two points opposite and ."

Gah!

erislover: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 05:34) [#3494]

"As for the second position, how do you find the value?"

The problem is that I am unfairly counting in some cases by not setting up a fair diagram (or not bothering to find an initial count).

KarlKnechtel: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 04:27) [#3492]

You seem to be arriving at a count of five points as 8 - 3, counting the unmarked spaces on each side. However, and are filled on one side, and empty (though circled) on the other; the actual count is 10 - 3.

erislover: Re: Seven points? (2007-06-27 05:44) [#3495]

Yeah, it was also my problem with the "9 point hane" above, just unfair counting. Thanks!