BQM 493

    Keywords: Joseki

In my games I started to play Mokuhazushi (5-3 point)just to try it out. I had some success with it and would want to know more about it. While the most common approach is the 3-4 point, once I encountered this and didn't quite know how to answer:

shoulder hit  

I thought that the two main alternatives are a and b but none of them really seems to punish W2 since b pushes w along the fourth line (isn't that bad?) and a just seems to take 3rd line territory in exchange for a white wall on the 4th line.

bugcat: Writing twelve years after this discussion took place in 2009, it's my impression that the AI revolution has recast this as a legitimate or semi-legitimate move. It usually, iirc, receives a decent score from bots.

I searched Waltheri: before 2018, the move was almost only ever played as a ladderbreaker. In 2018, it was used in a couple of games, in which it was not a ladderbreaker. Strong players I've talked to before on this subject seemed to think it was OK.

In both games (IDs 78433 and 80867) White pushed up against the corner instead of haneing. In the first case, the position transposed to an "avalanche avoided" or "new avalanche" structure, and in the second a slightly different wall was formed. Both games were won by White (to use the diagram colours).

I showed a development from my own game at /4k Game Sequence.


3-4 exchange seems forced, since I don't think continuing to push would be a good idea... and this exchange doesn't quite seem to punish w's shoulder hit


I see some trouble for b if he tries to resist...


And couldn't W just tenuki after W2 leaving the shoulder hit as a forcing move and treat it lightly (and maybe use it later)?

so, my question as a 5k (KGS) is, how to best answer/punish the shoulder hit on Mokuhazushi?

unkx80: My quick answers here. Please feel free to ask for an elaboration.


B5 can cross-cut. No way White can get a good result here.

Looks to me like W4 should be at B5. ~srn347

unkx80: Probably. Then B5 at W4, the result don't seem too good for White either.


If W4 tenuki, B5 can either tenuki or play the hane at B5. This is a pretty solid corner with definite territory.

Andy: B1 looks a little slack here though, so maybe tenuki is better?


Actually the above is a transposition of the 3-4 point corner enclosure with the W1 and B2 exchange. This exchange is rarely good for White.

JoelR: This is an interesting discussion. I have some questions about the continuations given:


Doesn't the effectiveness depend on whether White has support around the star point?


If Black plays for the side with B3, is W4 playable? Yes, it induces a shoulder hit, but White might get a big corner, and Black might need to protect against cuts.

MrTenuki: This position is bad for White according to the six-kyu noseki page, though.

simple variation  

bugcat: In my last game, White and I played this sequence on a completely empty board. The view of the OGS bot (weakest level) was that White gained half a point.

It's instructive to use tewari here, I think. In the diagram below, there's no way that Black would continue at a rather than b, yet this is the position White has forced transposition to.


BQM 493 last edited by bugcat on January 4, 2022 - 02:28
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