Forum for Automatic invasion at the 3-4 point

About the example [#3132]

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189.203.45.36: About the example (2015-04-18 20:06) [#10471]
[Diagram]
3-4 invasion: bad result  

I think the first diagram is pretty misleading, assuming that a move at B3 is any good. The reason for which a move W2 at W4 is bad for White is the same reason B3 is just as bad. If white plays creating a wider side Black punishes it by playing B3 at B5 (in the diagram) increasing his influence over the wider side and getting leverage on a part of the board that was made more valuable by White's mistake. However, the problem with the move order change in the actual diagram is the opposite, Black creates a shorter side with B3, immediately making both B1 and B3 inefficient. The correct move by White should be one that ignores the short side, like the 4-4 point in the top left. This is proven true (according to ps.waltheri.net's database) in that only 30% of pros playing Black in the resulting diagram win.

[Diagram]
Alternative  

The result is that the left side and the top side are equally valuable, making them miai. But black has created a shorter side, so after White gets either of the more valuable sides he can approach the lower right in a way tht will leave Black and White with equally valuable top and left, but Black's right side will be less valuable than White's lower side.

[Diagram]
Potential follow-up  

It is very important to choose the proper joseki however, emphasizing the difference in the side's value and forcing Black too keep the shorter side, which Black of course should not allow. However, this shows the problem with B3 in the first place, it serves no purpose to play prioritizing influence over a side you do not intend to keep, for which I consider that such a move is a trick play with little strategic depth other than trying to induce a poor position through a timing mistake from White.

X
24.210.197.96: Re: About the example (2015-04-19 06:58) [#10473]

It doesn't have to be that the order the diagram reached made sense. It was a known example where black had the advantage, albeit a slight advantage that we almost have to take the pro who wrote The Direction of Play's word for. However, I think we cannot easily say B3 was bad.

[Diagram]
Black's stones are still reasonable and well placed?  
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187.189.163.243: ((no subject)) (2015-04-19 16:57) [#10477]
[Diagram]
W8 is fundamentally wrong  

In this variation White fails to capitalize on Black's mistake of B3, by allowing him to make an enclosure, more so, an enclosure that devaluates white's lower side with it's influence.

[Diagram]
Consider  

Playing like this, White actually tries to make profit from the mistake of B3, instead of passively letting Black fix it. It is clear that white is left with the (however slightly) wider side, hence, Black's stones are not working as efficiently as White's, hence, they are not efficient enough.

[Diagram]
Pro play  

Pros will not play at a immediately, but will instead further capitalize on the mistake by playing around b, ideally ending up in sente to play a as soon as the exchange ends. this is to reduce the influence of the marked black stone, making it even less efficient.

[Diagram]
Move order.  

As for the order of the moves, it is actually important. Kajiwara gives the example in The Direction of Play as a method to punish W2, by playing B3. Where White creates a wider side, and Black invests influence over it immediately to take advantage of its increased value. But playing B3 at b after W2 at a makes wider sides of the top left and bottom. With an odd number of wider sides and White in sente he should strive to obtain 2 of them and make Black end up with one wide and one short side. This is very different from The Direction of Play, in that the order played in the book is a legitimate way to punish a mistake, while the other is a trick play trying to induce a mistake from the opponent's fear of 4-5 stones.

X
24.210.197.96: Re: ((no subject)) (2015-04-19 19:15) [#10478]
[Diagram]
W8 is fundamentally wrong  
189.203.45.79: Re: ((no subject)) (2015-04-20 05:21) [#10480]
[Diagram]
From pro play  

Again, the example you propose prompts the question: Why play the 4-5 point in the first place? The strategic meaning of a play at takamoku is very specific. It sacrifices territory in exchange for influence over one side: The side it leans towards, not the exact other. The fact that only 9 moves into the game the position forces Black to change his strategy in order not to fall behind only means that the strategy is bad in the first place, hence, the move itself is bad. Black has the advantage of playing first, he should ideally lead the whole game by somewhere between 6 and 9 points, not struggle to reduce White's lead. If the game is evened out after Black plays the marked stone it means that White is leading on komi, which in turn means that Black's moves have lost him somewhere between 6.5 and 8.5 points of his lead as the first move player.

24.210.197.96: Re: ((no subject)) (2015-04-20 05:45) [#10481]

You're trolling right? 7 points is a ridiculous amount. Just extend B2 @ 3 if you don't like hane. Black didn't switch directions; White played as invited and Black makes a grand moyo. 7 points bad for black and pros play it... ... I'm curious what the sample size was on your 30% figure, too.

Timm: Re: ((no subject)) (2015-04-20 05:52) [#10482]

I'll say nothing about the proposed position but 7 points is a large lead according to professionnal standards.

Also I'm sorry but I can't follow this discussion, could you please sign your replies at the end ? Thanks !

189.203.45.79: Re: ((no subject)) (2015-04-20 08:30) [#10483]

The joseki is pro play, the fuseki is not. Up to move W4 69.2% of pro games in the ps.waltheri.net database are won by white.

 
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Forum for Automatic invasion at the 3-4 point
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