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I have delisted the community ads from MoyoGo today.
After a complaint, I tried to settle the issue with Frank de Groot in private email. Instead of coming to a mutual understanding, the issue was taken public and the differences deepend.
Morten and I decided to delist the ads. We did not take this decision lightly. It is sad that no other resolution could be found.
Some final words about the copyright issue that started it all: I have never looked at this problem from a legal point of view. Instead I tried to adhere to netiquette. For me, the argument distills down to benefitting from other's work without their consent:
If you do this without consent (and in a commercial context no less) you are violating netiquette in my books. And that is enough to get the ads delisted. It is not about the same games being found in another collection (as was attributed to me on rgg).
You are free to discuss our decision, but be warned that if it degenerates into a flamewar I will not hesitate to delete postings.
Morten Some other points on this issue:
On a lighter note, it slightly bemused me to see a statement to the fact that SL had a virtual monopoly on Go-websites in the western world. Be that as it may or may not, it is pure hubris to claim that having an ad on SL equates to commercial success whereas not having it leads to the need to close up shop. Please, let's not overdramatise the issue.
As apparently just about everyone seems to ignore or misrepresent same basic facts, let me repost some of them:
Posts by Frank de Groot in the original threads that I think are relevant to preserve. Post #680 below was a follow up to #643 above.
Please note that due to technical reasons I had to rename post #607 to post #667.
Does it?
I am sorry. It was my very first entry here. I saw pages for all major Go software, and at the time I made the entry, I already knew I was going to be banned from Sensei's Library.
To be honest, if I will be banned, you ain't seen nothing yet. I most likely will write a SPAMbot that inserts my ads into tens of thousands of pages, in order to reach a similar ad distribution as if I would not be banned.
I would hate to do this, but it would be a reasonable solution to an excessive and unethical boycot, and I would cease immediately if I would not be censored any more. I apologize in advance for any inconvenience caused. Let's hope the principals of this server will come to their senses before I have to ressort to these unpleasant tactics. But if war will be declared, I will fight it. When a site has a near-monopoly in the Western Go world, it is highly unethical to block a a single vendor without going to an extremely arduous process of weight and counterweight. This site has become bigger than Mr. Holossi and Mr. Pahle.
My take on ths issue is this: I am struggling to make enough money to pay medication. I am too ill to work a regular job. I have a brain infection that makes me loose control quite often.
Then I became delisted by Sensei's Library for no good reason. I see this as a matter of literally life and death, and I thought I would be technically able to fight the ban, as I always prefer the fight over fleeing or, god forbid, give up alltogether.
Under no circumstances would I ever do anything illegal or damaging to the community here. I am very enthousiastic of using my talents for Go research and innovation and not for jobs like Stock Trading.
I am sorry I offended people but that's unfortunately the way I am, when I feel I am unfairly attacked.
Now, suddenly everybody, for lack of solid arguments for the original delisting, is using this threat of mine to "prove" that in fact I am worthless scum and indeed I deserved the ban in the first place. This is like saying someone deserved to be kicked because he threatened to retaliate (in anger) after you kicked him.
Morten, SL risks getting "blocked" itself. Calm down and keep the folks here under control. Slander and libel are serious offences.
I think the worst thing you could do is denying me the opportunity to defend myself against the criminal accusations made here. The only defence (in a courtroom) you would have for enabling anonymous people to accuse a non-anonymous person of a prisonable offence is the fact that it is an open forum where I can defend myself.
Denying me of that right will result in immediate legal action towards the publisher of this website as soon as a single libellous statement towards my person is made. I do not like to have verbs like "illegal" and "criminal" associated with my name and business.
As soon as this happens, those who make these allegations are "illegal" and "criminal" themselves, including the operators of Sensei's Library. I'm being childish perhaps, but deadly serious.
Dear all,
I have deleted the thread "Any truth to this" (thread #190), "Sensei's Usenet" (#199) and most posts in this thread (#195) due to possible legal action by Frank de Groot.
From: "Frank de Groot" <franciad@...>
To: "Arno Hollosi" <ahollosi@xmp.net>
Cc: <morten@pahle.org.uk>
Subject: Possible legal action gainst SL - Cease & desist notice
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 05:53:07 +0100
Content of email removed. Arno, 2006-12-26
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:31:45 +0100
From: Arno Hollosi <ahollosi@xmp.net>
To: Frank de Groot <franciad@...>
CC: morten@pahle.org.uk
Subject: Re: Possible legal action gainst SL - Cease & desist noticeDear Frank,
a) without being more specific I cannot help you. Please name pages, threads and postings that carry such information and if possible please name in what way the contents there constitute libel & slander.
b) SL is a wiki. We cannot control postings and edits in advance. Although, we are happy to delete any material deemed inappropriate if necessary. The only technical measure we could take is adding stop-word filters that prohibit adding the words "MoyoGo" "Moyo Go" "MGS" "Groot" "Frank de Groot" to any pages/postings. But I don't think that this would be in your interest. If it is in your interest please let me know. Please be adviced that this would basically mean that we would have to remove any and all references to you and your product to keep pages editable.
c) We do not reside in the USA. Therefor their law does not apply. Please see http://senseis.xmp.net/?About For the purpose of legal action, I am the one running the server. I reside in Austria. You can find my address on the page named.
d) Unless ordered to do so by court I will not disclose any information that is not public. Furthermore it is unlikely that we could provide more than a mere list of IP-addresses plus email addresses in a minority of cases. I don't know how helpful that would be to you.
regards,
/Arno
Please do not post follow-ups on this. I know some will be outraged and some will sympathize for either side. As provider of this wiki I bear legal responsibility and have decided to revoke all posts. Furthermore, as stated on SL Copyright we do take down pages / posts even is there is no legal need to do so, but in order to adhere with reasonable wishes of others.
If you would like to get your own words back - so to speak - I can email you the original threads.
On a personal note: if I would be as short tempered as other people I would have deleted any and all pages/references to MoyoGo by now.
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