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Community ads of MoyoGo delisted [#195]

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ArnoHollosi: Community ads of MoyoGo delisted (2005-12-02 08:55) [#614]

I have delisted the community ads from MoyoGo today.

After a complaint, I tried to settle the issue with Frank de Groot in private email. Instead of coming to a mutual understanding, the issue was taken public and the differences deepend.

Morten and I decided to delist the ads. We did not take this decision lightly. It is sad that no other resolution could be found.

Some final words about the copyright issue that started it all: I have never looked at this problem from a legal point of view. Instead I tried to adhere to netiquette. For me, the argument distills down to benefitting from other's work without their consent:

  • Finding and typing in a game takes X minutes.
  • Importing the game from a collection takes Y minutes.
  • I assert that Y is much smaller than X.
  • Therefor one saves (X-Y) minutes work on every game.
  • In other words: one benefits.

If you do this without consent (and in a commercial context no less) you are violating netiquette in my books. And that is enough to get the ads delisted. It is not about the same games being found in another collection (as was attributed to me on rgg).

You are free to discuss our decision, but be warned that if it degenerates into a flamewar I will not hesitate to delete postings.

Morten: Re: about the "banning" of MoyoGo (2005-12-03 01:45) [#643]

Morten Some other points on this issue:

  • Anyone who threatens to take action which is detrimental to SL runs the risk of being blocked. Although we have not blocked Frank, we did consider it reasonable to withdraw the advantages which we were providing him (viz. the ads). In view of his stated desire to attack the site and in view of other more or less explicit threats in emails, there is an argument to say that we have been overly lenient. However, we prefer to err on the side of caution and not to overreact.
  • SL is bigger than Arno and Morten? Well yes, of course it is. And neither Arno nor Morten consider it otherwise. The community which has helped develop SL is SL. Our approach as administrators has always been armslength and, on those rare occasions when any 'admin' action has been necessary, in line with the majority of the community.

On a lighter note, it slightly bemused me to see a statement to the fact that SL had a virtual monopoly on Go-websites in the western world. Be that as it may or may not, it is pure hubris to claim that having an ad on SL equates to commercial success whereas not having it leads to the need to close up shop. Please, let's not overdramatise the issue.

ArnoHollosi: Explaining it one more time (2005-12-03 15:23) [#663]

As apparently just about everyone seems to ignore or misrepresent same basic facts, let me repost some of them:

  • I don't care about wether the issue at hand is legal or not. Reread my first posting above. So please stop arguing about copyright.
  • I checked just now and I can still find references to MoyoGo on its very own page, Go Databases, Go Editing Programs, and Link Collection (just to name a few pages). So do me a favour and stop using the words "ban", "boycot", "cencorship", and similar ones.
  • It is not about the same games being found in another collection. Reread that sentence. Think about the consequences. Reread again. (I'd guess that GoGod/SmartGo/MasterGo/ share about 80% of the same games. Yet, noone picks on each other.) So in addition, please avoid the words "monopoly", "patent", and similar ones.
  • Ask yourself why noone complained about, when it appeared some time ago (hint: they type in the game records themselves) If you have never considered the time that goes into creating a collection of thousands of game records (typing in, consistent naming scheme, etc.), then don't assume that you know what you are talking about. Reread the part about fairness and saving time in my first posting above.
  • I could not care less if because of MoyoGo's supposed superiority/innovation other collections' sales would plummet. Let me repeat: I don't care about market share, earnings, or revenue of anyone.
  • I did not wake up one morning and thought: let's have a little fun and start a fight with Frank.
  • There is no [ext] usenet cabal. There is no Go cabal either.
  • Noone has a right to have community ads profiled through SL. Morten and I decide. Period.
  • One year ago, there were no ads. Only the "partner site" links. Why did noone complain then that putting in such a privileged position is unfair? Why did noone say "You have to show ads for my product immediately, otherwise I spam SL"?
  • Community ads are by analogy an extension of the partner site links. We help friends making their product/service known. Keyword in the previous sentence: friends (Morten's and mine to be precise). After taking much public abuse and private outbursts of anger, without getting answers to what I thought were politely asked questions, I don't consider Frank a friend of mine.
  • The "evidence" considered for making this decision were public available statements on and on Frank's blog, plus private email from Frank.
  • From complaint to delisting the ads it took about two weeks. I invested several hours of reading up on the issue, consulting friends, confering with Morten, etc. I did take the issue seriously.
  • Finally, I have not read a new argument in this case since the issue went public. So if you have nothing new to add, do me a favour and don't post.
ArnoHollosi: Frank's posts for reference (2005-12-04 11:54) [#665]

Posts by Frank de Groot in the original threads that I think are relevant to preserve. Post #680 below was a follow up to #643 above.

Please note that due to technical reasons I had to rename post #607 to post #667.

X Re: Any truth to this? (2005-12-02 03:58) [#667]

Does it?

I am sorry. It was my very first entry here. I saw pages for all major Go software, and at the time I made the entry, I already knew I was going to be banned from Sensei's Library.

To be honest, if I will be banned, you ain't seen nothing yet. I most likely will write a SPAMbot that inserts my ads into tens of thousands of pages, in order to reach a similar ad distribution as if I would not be banned.

I would hate to do this, but it would be a reasonable solution to an excessive and unethical boycot, and I would cease immediately if I would not be censored any more. I apologize in advance for any inconvenience caused. Let's hope the principals of this server will come to their senses before I have to ressort to these unpleasant tactics. But if war will be declared, I will fight it. When a site has a near-monopoly in the Western Go world, it is highly unethical to block a a single vendor without going to an extremely arduous process of weight and counterweight. This site has become bigger than Mr. Holossi and Mr. Pahle. Re: ((no subject)) (2005-12-04 04:48) [#678]

My take on ths issue is this: I am struggling to make enough money to pay medication. I am too ill to work a regular job. I have a brain infection that makes me loose control quite often.

Then I became delisted by Sensei's Library for no good reason. I see this as a matter of literally life and death, and I thought I would be technically able to fight the ban, as I always prefer the fight over fleeing or, god forbid, give up alltogether.

Under no circumstances would I ever do anything illegal or damaging to the community here. I am very enthousiastic of using my talents for Go research and innovation and not for jobs like Stock Trading.

I am sorry I offended people but that's unfortunately the way I am, when I feel I am unfairly attacked.

Now, suddenly everybody, for lack of solid arguments for the original delisting, is using this threat of mine to "prove" that in fact I am worthless scum and indeed I deserved the ban in the first place. This is like saying someone deserved to be kicked because he threatened to retaliate (in anger) after you kicked him. Re: about the "banning" of MoyoGo (2005-12-04 06:24) [#680]

Morten, SL risks getting "blocked" itself. Calm down and keep the folks here under control. Slander and libel are serious offences.

I think the worst thing you could do is denying me the opportunity to defend myself against the criminal accusations made here. The only defence (in a courtroom) you would have for enabling anonymous people to accuse a non-anonymous person of a prisonable offence is the fact that it is an open forum where I can defend myself.

Denying me of that right will result in immediate legal action towards the publisher of this website as soon as a single libellous statement towards my person is made. I do not like to have verbs like "illegal" and "criminal" associated with my name and business.

As soon as this happens, those who make these allegations are "illegal" and "criminal" themselves, including the operators of Sensei's Library. I'm being childish perhaps, but deadly serious.

ArnoHollosi: Threads and posts deleted due to possible legal action (2006-12-26 11:22) [#684]

Dear all,

I have deleted the thread "Any truth to this" (thread #190), "Sensei's Usenet" (#199) and most posts in this thread (#195) due to possible legal action by Frank de Groot.

Frank's email

From: "Frank de Groot" <franciad@...>
To: "Arno Hollosi" <>
Cc: <>
Subject: Possible legal action gainst SL - Cease & desist notice
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 05:53:07 +0100

Content of email removed. Arno, 2006-12-26

My reply

Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:31:45 +0100
From: Arno Hollosi <>
To: Frank de Groot <franciad@...>
Subject: Re: Possible legal action gainst SL - Cease & desist notice

Dear Frank,

a) without being more specific I cannot help you. Please name pages, threads and postings that carry such information and if possible please name in what way the contents there constitute libel & slander.

b) SL is a wiki. We cannot control postings and edits in advance. Although, we are happy to delete any material deemed inappropriate if necessary. The only technical measure we could take is adding stop-word filters that prohibit adding the words "MoyoGo" "Moyo Go" "MGS" "Groot" "Frank de Groot" to any pages/postings. But I don't think that this would be in your interest. If it is in your interest please let me know. Please be adviced that this would basically mean that we would have to remove any and all references to you and your product to keep pages editable.

c) We do not reside in the USA. Therefor their law does not apply. Please see [ext] For the purpose of legal action, I am the one running the server. I reside in Austria. You can find my address on the page named.

d) Unless ordered to do so by court I will not disclose any information that is not public. Furthermore it is unlikely that we could provide more than a mere list of IP-addresses plus email addresses in a minority of cases. I don't know how helpful that would be to you.



Please do not post follow-ups on this. I know some will be outraged and some will sympathize for either side. As provider of this wiki I bear legal responsibility and have decided to revoke all posts. Furthermore, as stated on SL Copyright we do take down pages / posts even is there is no legal need to do so, but in order to adhere with reasonable wishes of others.

If you would like to get your own words back - so to speak - I can email you the original threads.

On a personal note: if I would be as short tempered as other people I would have deleted any and all pages/references to MoyoGo by now.

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