Sub-page of Button

flower: Would it be a good idea to write '1/2 point moku' instead of just 1/2 point? Instead of moku 'full count' might suffice as well. I ask as I had been confused by the Button Go pages before, as they did not specify either full or half count. (it was solved by you saying at some point that the scores must add up to 361.5, thus it was clear that Full count was used. But it was hidden pretty deep in some post. Bye :)

Bill: It is customary to declare the result of a game by Chinese scoring as Blacks' score - 180.5, with neutral points at the end shared between the players. With button go that result would be Black's score - 180.75. Other groups of players may customarily declare the result as Black's score - White's score. Either way, whoever gets the button adds 1/2 point to their score.

flower: Yes so far it was clear, yet when I first learned about Button Go I thought your 0.5 points were given in 'chinese half-count' and were thus 0.5zi instead of 0.5 moku. Thus until three days ago I thought that your button was worth 1 moku (as I assumed you meant 0.5 zi). I may know the answer now, but I recommended the changing of 'points' into 'points moku' or 'moku' so that no one else can repeat my misinterpretation.

Bill: Well, moku refers to territory, and the button is used for area scoring. So it really is 0.5 zi, I guess. The mechanics of determining the final result is another question.

Flower: Ahh I think it might be a what is moku and zi definition issue. When I was introduced to the term I was explained that moku means territory and zi stone and that theu are used in western go in the following way:

  • moku is the 'unit' of the full count typically used in territory scoring
  • zi is the 'unit' of the 'chinese half count' typically used in chinese area scoring.
  • zi and moku relate to each other by 2 moku = 1 Zi

Ahh well, I have the nagging feeling that this is not how you use zi and moku (which could imply that my ideas about them are wrong). are above assumptions correct?

Bill: From the zi page: "Roughly spoken, each point of the board counts to the color which is agreed to have conquered it."

That is my understanding, but I will gladly defer to someone who knows better, such as unkx80 and John Fairbairn. If I understand correctly, zi and moku do not relate to each other as 2 moku = 1 zi. It is just that the Chinese report the final score as the difference between Black's score and the average score, while the Japanese report it as the difference between Black's score and White's score.

flower: :) Imagine my puzzlement when I read Robert's article about the [ext] parity of komi with the thought 'button worth=1moku' anchored firmly in my mind. (Now his note of the necessity of a full-count komi of 7.75 moku to prevent jigo in Button Go makes far more sense :)

Bill: It's also unnecessary. With button go an integer full count komi is fine. You just have to remember to subtract 180.75 from Black's zi. E. g., With a full count komi of 8, suppose that Black gets the button, for a score of 184.5. Then the final result is 184.5 - 4 - 180.75 = -0.25. There is no jigo.

Button/discussion last edited by Bill on March 1, 2007 - 21:24
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