Forum for Top 20 European Players

native European - discrimination? [#4360]

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Malcolm: native European - discrimination? (2017-10-13 15:59) [#11019]

Personally, I think the term native European is unhelpful here; almost discriminatory. Here the meaning seems to be: people whose birth nationality was European. There are players in the first list who I know have in adult life taken a European nationality, and live in Europe, and are not in the second list.

According to the dictionary these players could be counted as native Europeans, as they are inhabitants of Europe.


1. A native or inhabitant of Europe. 2. A person of European descent.

There seem to be two options to improve the page; personally I prefer option A.

A: remove the second list.

B: rename the second list as "of European nationality at birth".

Comments are welcome.

HermanHiddema: Re: native European - discrimination? (2017-10-18 10:06) [#11022]

I don't think anybody cares much about the nationality issue, but rather about the achievement inherent therein. Because go is Europe is so far behind China/Japan/Korea, it is much harder to get a high level. The second list effectively removes players that became strong in the pro system in one of the Asian countries and then moved to Europe later.

reply ((no subject)) (2017-10-13 18:20) [#11020]

I doubt the players listed on the page will suffer as a consequence of its current contents, but since you mention this, why not expand to 3 lists? After all, you can never have enough data analysis.

  • Top 20 listed as European in EGD
  • Top 10 native Europeans
  • Top 10 nationals/citizens of European States
Malcolm: Re: ((no subject)) (2017-10-18 16:05) [#11024]

My point is that "native European" is problematic; it's meaning is vague. I have no objection to having a list "Top 10 nationals/citizens of European States" but it might be hard to get the source data. "European" is also a bit of a vague term, come to mention it! Would the conditions change once Brexit is effective, for instance?

HermanHiddema: Re: ((no subject)) (2017-10-18 16:56) [#11025]

I think you're overestimating the importance of precision here. In the 14 years this page has existed, you're the first person who has made a point of it. Yes, it is imprecise, and yes, the term European is vague. It is also vague in "European Go Federation" (includes Israel) and Pandanet Go European Team Championship (includes Isreal, Morocco and South Africa). And you really don't want to get involved in the edit wars on Wikipedia's "Europe" page :)

Point being, I don't think anybody was really confused about the distinction made between the two lists, or surprised the second one includes Israel, and I don't think anybody really cares about which (parts of) countries are "European". The whole idea is based on the ratings of the EGF and the general shared "European" go culture that exists through that organisation.

DudleyMoore: Re: ((no subject)) (2017-10-18 17:25) [#11026]

I think Herman puts it rather well. In this context I assume(d) that the expected meaning of native would be somebody who was born in a country, but it is just my assumption. To add to the uncertainty, the meaning of European is not well defined. Just like Eurovision, the EGF has spread out to some unexpected places. A few notes would clarify things if you're really worried about the definitions, and I suppose that for the sake of wikiness, we should worry about the definitions.

I think the relative length of the two lists shows their respective importance. The EGF rating list shows us the top active tournament players in Europe. That's the main focus of the page. Only of secondary interest is the list of people who were born in Europe and (mostly) learnt the game there.

tapir: ((no subject)) (2017-10-13 21:41) [#11021]

In general: Please edit first, discuss later. It is a wiki, it doesn't write itself by filling discussion pages. If someone disagrees strongly, there will be a discussion later.

On topic: Iyama Yuta is probably still the best under 30 professional player in Japan. Would he care to be listed in the special junior ratings, would it be discrimination to not list him? Imo it is superfluous to support Fan Hui and Guo Juan by adding them to the special list when they have top places in the main list anyway. We all understand what the special list is about, I suppose.

Malcolm: ((no subject)) (2017-10-18 16:01) [#11023]

HermanHiddema that's a good point. I renamed the second list. Thank you also tapir for your comments.

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