Forum for Enclosure

why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? [#2201]

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HermanHiddema: why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? (2010-02-23 15:06) [#7286]

Is there a reason that 3464 Enclosure (large high enclosure from a 3-4 stone) isn't on the list?

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71.234.188.145: Re: why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? (2010-02-23 17:06) [#7287]

Bob McGuigan: Could it be as simple as that it isn't really a standard enclosure? I just read the original page and the last enclosure shown there, high two-space jump from a star point stone, is certainly not standard either. I guess the question is what does "standard" mean. To me it means often or frequently played by pros. By that definition I think the 3-4 6-4 enclosure isn't standard, nor is the 4-4 7-4 enclosure.

HermanHiddema: Re: why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? (2010-02-23 17:10) [#7289]

But is it any less standard than 4-4 7-4, or 3-3 4-5, or 3-3 4-6?

A database search (GoGoD winter 2009) tells me 3-4 6-4 was played 329 times, slightly less often than 4-4 7-4 at 390 times, but quite a lot more often than either 3-3 enclosure (but then, 3-3 is a much rarer move than 4-4 or 3-4 anyway, so that is not so strange

EDIT: The above comment was edited, my reply here was to only the first sentence, which was the original content of the post.

71.234.188.145: Re: why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? (2010-02-23 17:16) [#7291]

Bob: Certainly all these unusual enclosures aren't standard. From my perspective these high far "enclosures" are hardly enclosures, they are more like extensions. They only reinforce the corner a little bit, if at all. As for the statistics from GoGoD they seem to support my idea that these aren't standard. Fewer than 400 examples from 40000 games, or 1%, isn't frequent usage.

HermanHiddema: Re: why is 3-4 6-4 not on the list? (2010-02-23 17:25) [#7293]

Yes, I agree.

My question was more meant to mean: Is there a reason this page title was chosen? A reference to some book I'm not familiar with, or a proverb i don't know, or a remark by a professional on the matter?

Something similar to, for example, the 36 Stratagems Applied To Go.

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AndyPierce: 3354 does not belong (2010-02-23 17:03) [#7288]

Does the 3354 enclosure really belong on the list of "standard enclosures"? Seems like this enclosure is a second best choice made when under duress, in a similar manner to the 3344 "enclosure" (not on the list) made in response to a double keima kakari.

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HermanHiddema: Re: 3354 does not belong (2010-02-23 17:07) [#7290]

Well, it does happen. My database search showed 145 pro games where 3-3 4-5 was played in an empty 10x10 corner (vs 289 times for 3-3 4-6 in the same empty corner).

AndyPierce: Re: 3354 does not belong (2010-02-23 17:39) [#7294]

Herman, can you run the database search to determine the frequency with which any two stones are played in an empty 10x10 corner? An ordered list would be nice if it is doable.

HermanHiddema: Re: 3354 does not belong (2010-02-23 18:52) [#7295]

I did some searches:

Enclosures with a 3-3 stone:

  • 4-6 Large knight's move: 289 times
  • 4-5 Small knight's move: 145 times
  • 3-6 Two point jump: 29 times
  • 3-5 One point jump: 7 times

Enclosures with a 3-4 stone:

  • 5-3 Small knight's move: 18987 times
  • 5-4 One point jump: 6732 times
  • 6-3 Large knight's move: 4275 times
  • 6-4 Two point jump: 329 times
  • 3-7 Two point jump other side: 11 times

Enclosures with a 4-4 stone:

  • 3-6 Small knight's move: 3128 times
  • 3-7 Large knight's move: 2917 times
  • 4-6 One point jump: 731 times
  • 4-7 Two point jump: 380 times
  • 3-8 Very large knight's move: 311 times
  • 3-5 Kosumi: 24 times

Enclosures with a 3-5 stone (excluding those already covered):

  • 5-4 High small knight's move: 319 times
  • 6-4 Large knight's move: 154 times
  • 5-5 One point jump up: 131 times
  • 6-3 Two by three jump: 53 times
  • 5-3 Elephant's jump: 7 times

Enclosures with a 4-5 stone (excluding those already covered):

  • 4-5 3-9 Very large knight's move: 50 times
  • 4-5 3-8 Large knight's move: 9 times

I'd hesitate to call several of these enclosures though. Particularly the very large knight's moves.

From the above statistics I think it is safe to say that there are five standard enclosures (those with thousands of hits), and seven or eight semi-standard enclosures (those with hundreds of hits, depending on whether you count 4-4 3-8). Other moves are at best "special circumstance" or "experimental" enclosures.

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71.234.188.145: ((no subject)) (2010-02-23 17:27) [#7292]

Bob McGuigan: In support of including the 3464 enclosure in the list I'll point out that Ishida Yoshio 9p, of joseki dictionary fame, published a book in the same vein as Takemiya's Enclosure Joseki called Shimari Gihou (Shimari Tactics). I think I mentioned it somewhere else on SL. He included some extensive discussion of the 3464 enclosure so I guess that gives it some legitimacy.

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tapir: It is a wiki! (no text) (2010-03-05 22:26) [#7309]

moved discussion from "the nine standard enclosures" to "enclosures" for transparency, before deleting the page as requested

 
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