Forum for Number of Wins Score
Consistency of naming [#2116]
I created this page to explain the phrase "Number of Wins Score" as used in the ![[ext]](images/extlink.gif)
EGF tournament rules. The idea was that people who are confused by the phrase "Number of Wins Score" elsewhere can find a good explanation on this page.
Now I find that "Number of Wins Score" in the text of the page has been replaced by "Number of Wins". To me this makes the whole exercise look rather pointless.
I agree with isd and others that the phrase "Number of Wins Score" is clumsy, not an elegant way to use the English language. However, if the phrase is already being used elsewhere, then I think SL should be consistent with that usage. The aim (in this case) is to describe what other people are doing, not what we think they should be doing.
I will let these pages cool off for two or three days, more if needed. Then, I intend to revert "Number of Wins" back to "Number of Wins Score", as much as I dislike that term, due to the same reasons xela stated. However, I intend to also rewrite the description of DC and IDC to simply say something to the effect of "number of wins plus half the number of draws", but mentioning "Number of Wins Score" along the way.
Happy 2010 greetings to all of you.
You should recognise though that the phrase Number of Wins Score is only used by the EGF rules commission. Although it may look to have more importance because it is inside an official document, in actual fact it does not have this importance. Only in official EGF tournaments (there are not many of these left) could this nomenclature be used. Other european events do not use it. From looking at the Swiss page you can see the normal term was already there: Number of Wins.
You were the one who added the "Number of Wins" term to the Swiss page. I would like see you quote one or more sources from outside Sensei's Library using the term "Number of Wins" (at the paragraph or sentence level) w.r.t. Swiss pairing, before I truly believe your claim. Unfortunately, right now I simply don't have the time to do this myself...
It's a perfectly reasonable request, but I am not sure if I can find the evidence from here. I can just pluck out some links below. This was what I mentioned earlier to Robert - people use the words Wins or Points (Popular programs GoDraw program uses Wins, Gotha uses Points, EPM (finnish) uses Points)
http://www.irish-go.org/clubs-tournaments/irish-open/1997-irish-open/ Wins (GoDraw)
http://www.irish-go.org/clubs-tournaments/irish-open/irish-open-2007-results/ Pt (Points) (Gotha)
http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Tournament_Card.php?&key=T090906A WIN (GoDraw)
http://www.suomigo.net/wiki/Kani6%2009%20Tulokset
Number of Wins Score simply sounds terrible in English, Number of Wins is better. It was mentioned in the Swiss page already and it is what people actually say in practice. I do not know if I can find evidence that it is generally written that way in Go tournaments. I really doubt I will find anyone writing Number of Wins Score and I know for sure that I never heard anyone say this. What I am trying to do here is to have a common sense name used, It is quite acceptable I think to alias NOW and NOWS.
Number of Wins may be better English, but it is inaccurate because one expects the number of wins only rather than the sum of the number of wins plus half the number of tied games.
Then there are three different things: A single player's value: Number of Wins (Score). And the values of all players: their Numbers of Wins (Scores). Finally the definition of the placement criterion independent of any particular tournament. Speaking there of Number of Wins is the least accurate.
That programs output a column header Wins may be practical, but it is an abbreviation anyway, quite like SOS is an abbreviation. Even parameters in program settings tend to use abbreviations rather than fully spelled phrases. So one cannot rely on programs' usage for knowing what is more correct.
Robert if you want to make an argument you could at least make one that made sense. Number of Wins Score does not suggest that draws be included anymore than Number of Wins does. I think you should respect the views of somebody who has English as a first language in this matter.
If you want to call it the Number of Wins, Defaults, Draws and Travelling Byes Score please go ahead. However Number of Wins is all that is needed.
As I have already said, Score, Points or Wins are what is in common usage right now in English.
As we see here and for many other terms, one always needs a compromise between too great ambiguity and too great length of a term's phrase.
Yes, compromise is important. You seem to me to be intent on placing Score at the end of each term. In the case of Number of Wins this doesn't add any extra meaning. Score is not a magic qualifier here.
You can use any of the following terms: Total, Score, Points, Wins, Number of Wins, maybe even Number of Points.
If you liked you might use Total Score, Total Points or Points Total or even Points Score, these are in general use.
The English language is a funny beast though, one simply does not use Win Points, Win Total or Win Score.
Equally one doesn't use Total Win Points, Total Win Score, Win Points Total, Number of Score Point Wins Total, Number of Wins Score ,or Number of Draw and Wins Score Points Total.
That's just the way it is. :) Fear over possible ambiguity is misplaced, any ambiguity can be resolved by a carefully crafted definition to be placed where people can find it.
No, no, we need, as I mentioned, at least three different definitions of what Number of Wins (Score) is:) For the single player, for all players in one tournament, for the abstract criterion definition independent of specific tournaments.
I don't understand what distinction you are trying to allude to. It sounds almost as if you are seriously suggesting that a single term should have 3 distinct meanings.
- The definition of the number of wins must be the same for each player. For a single player it is the total of 1 point per win and 0.5 points per draw (plus or minus whatever penalties, byes might occur).
- What on earth is the number of wins for all players in one tournament? Why would you use it? Are you talking about looking at a partial tournament? - a subset? Are you just talking about combining the NOW of say 2 or 3 players together?
- abstract criterion definition independent of specific tournaments? What on earth would that be? Why on earth would you need that?
Suppose you define "The Number of Wins of a player is the sum of his number of wins plus half his number of ties in a tournament.". (Note aside: Number of Wins differs from number of wins.) When you apply the definition to a particular player in a particular tournament, you get, say, 5. So we have a) The general concept Number of Wins as its definition and b) the particular application of the concept, where the particular player's Number of Wins is 5 in the particular tournament. These are two different things. And when you look at another player, you might get a different (or incidentally the same) number. So, to distinguish the two kinds, we might say "the definition of Number of Wins for the particular tournament" versus "the Number of Wins of the particular player in the particular tournament". You want to call both, e.g., Number of Wins. I want to warn that we should be careful.
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