Forum for Number of Wins Score

Normality [#2112]

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isd: Normality (2009-12-28 13:40) [#6759]

This should be referenced by the Swiss Pairings page really. It is not normally called Number of Wins Score, it is generally just called Score, Wins or Points.

I don't really like creating a new page based on somebody's unique nomenclature.

X
RobertJasiek: Re: Normality (2009-12-28 19:25) [#6763]

"score" is generic and used for different kinds of scores like Number of Wins Score or like McMahon Score. "wins" is used also outside specialized usage in tournaments and then it has meanings different from "number of wins" or "number of wins score". "number of wins" is a number of a single player. "number of wins score" refers to placement criterion that assigns a number of wins value to each player in the tournament. Therefore "number of wins score" (or with capital letters) is correct here. "points" is even more generic and ambiguous than "score". In particular, points refer to points on the board, possibly incl. prisoners etc. and komi. Using "points" instead of Number of Wins Score is the most confusing choice. - Number of Wins Score has been in use for many years by various players. That you know only one of them and that you cannot imply from the EGF Tournament System Rules that more than one person applies them is your fault - not a fault of the phrase Number of Wins Score.

isd: Re: Normality (2009-12-28 22:36) [#6764]

Sorry but the term "number of wins score" is not in common usage. While the other alternatives may not be unique, or perfect, they are nonetheless in common usage. That was the point I was making.

xela: Why we should have pages for technical terms that aren't common (2009-12-29 01:39) [#6766]

I agree that using phrases such as "Number of Wins Score" is an ugly thing to do to the English language. However, this phrase appears in the European tournament rules (see [ext] http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/toursysrules.htm ). We at Sensei's don't have the power to rewrite those rules. Therefore I think the least confusing thing we can do is to make sure that direct comparison and iterative direct comparison use wording that is consistent with those rules, and then make a page to explain what the phrase means.

tapir: Re: Why we should have pages for technical terms that aren't common (2009-12-30 14:21) [#6794]

Well, we should not underestimate SL. If there will be a better definition that even Robert and Ian can agree upon then i don't see any reason why the EGF shouldn't adopt it in future :)

isd: Re: Why we should have pages for technical terms that aren't common (2009-12-30 14:27) [#6795]

I am not just disagreeing with Robert for the sake of it. :) For me the correct thing to do is just to alias them. Number of Wins is a passable name, Number of Wins Score is ugly. I expect that most other SL users don't give a damn, so no consensus will be reached for quite some time.

tapir: Re: Why we should have pages for technical terms that aren't common (2009-12-30 14:43) [#6796]

I don't give a damn as well, but try to keep the discussion fluid by introducing some proposals etc. See the Direct Comparison page.

RobertJasiek: Re: Normality (2009-12-29 06:31) [#6768]

It is like saying that any Go term not known to everybody were not in common usage. Of course, the common usage is only by those using the term. If it helps you though, you might add a list of all possible aliases and add lists of all possible meanings of the words and phrases "points", "win", "score", "number of wins" and the respective pages. E.g., "score" would have to list at least four fundamentally different meanings "board score", "score according to the scoring method (like Area Scoring), "Number of Wins Score", "McMahon Score". Presumably there are more meanings. Likewise for "win" etc. And, of course, you can create an additional page that explains all possible meanings of "number of wins" like "a single player's number of wins" or like "Number of Wins Score".

isd: Re: Normality (2009-12-29 16:28) [#6776]

That is another argument. If you want to make up a new name it should be a sensible one. You might consider, Number of Wins, this has a nice acronym: NOW or Basic Score, this has a rude acronym, BS. Combining wins and score in the same definition makes it very ugly looking in the English language, this is because wins and score are basically the same thing. Normally we ask players What is your score? How many wins do you have? How is your score? nobody would ever say What is your win score?

For comparison try the phrase McMahon Score Points

RobertJasiek: Re: Normality (2009-12-29 17:42) [#6779]

A different view originates from creating a term similar to "McMahon Score".

isd: Re: Normality (2009-12-29 17:49) [#6780]

I can see that it has, but it doesn't really further the argument.

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tapir: swiss score (2009-12-30 14:47) [#6797]

if it is the same as the swiss score, why not call it swiss score. with number of wins as alias to swiss score. all the trouble about "number of wins" ignoring jigo but "number of wins score" including jigo comes from introducing another misleading term for swiss score. is it necessary?

X
isd: Re: swiss score (2009-12-30 14:54) [#6799]

That doesn't sound like a bad proposal to me. It is after all exactly the same as the Swiss Score that was already there.

RobertJasiek: Re: swiss score (2009-12-30 15:33) [#6807]

Because Swiss is not the only tournament system where that kind of criterion is used. E.g., round-robin also uses Number of Wins Score as the first criterion.

isd: Re: swiss score (2009-12-30 15:37) [#6811]

Well try something older - like the AVRO chess tournament, how did they present the results for that?

RobertJasiek: Re: swiss score (2009-12-30 15:41) [#6812]

You tell us.

isd: Re: swiss score (2009-12-30 15:55) [#6813]

[ext] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVRO_1938_chess_tournament they use the word Total. The alias count rises!

 
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